Jag vs 3DO. The thread unlocked.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:45 am

I love both, truth be told, but I do believe the 3DO was better, and here is my reasoning.

I believe the 3DO was more forward thinking. The PS3, 360 and Wii are merely 3DO Mk3s. It's basically 3DOs vision of a multimedia entertainment unit come to fruition. Where as the Jaguar was a MegaDrive/SNES on steroids. (of cause 3DO might just be a continuation of the Amiga CDTV and Philips CDi)

3DO embraced party games and casual games more than the Jaguar, (Worms is awesome) although I don't like them, they are a significant genre. The jaguar seemed to pandered to a niche of ex-Amiga and ST users (Of which I'm both.

)

I believe, thanks to the adoption of CD, in general that 3DO games were more modern too and gave us a better vision of games for the following 15 years. NFS on the 3DO is and was every racing game since. PGR, Grid, GT, Forza owe a nod to a game born from an era when Ridge and Daytona were king. Seminal games like FFVII owe more than just a thankyou to 3DO exclusives like Luciennes Quest and Power Kingdoms. And survival horror games, like D, Hauzer and even Escape from Monster Manor paved the way for Resident Evil and Silent Hill. With that in mind, I believe 3DO heralded in the 32bit/64bit era more than the Jaguar did, and therefore it was better.

The Jaguar, likewise, has no competition for the multimedia epic Wing Commander III. Sure, it's got good space games, but it failed to deliver them in forward thinking way. Rather the Jaguar delivered them in a rather stale last generation way, and in it's games library, the jaguar lacks the number of influential games the 3DO enjoys. Sure the Jag has good games, but very little of it was new or exciting.

I believe a lot of (all be they very very good) Jaguar games are 16 bit (ST, Amiga, Falcon games) on steroids. I think the cartridge, as with the SNES, held the Jaguar platform back. Meaning the 3DO was better in my eyes from a platform basis.

I believe the 3DO had a better collection of 2D fighting games which is still a significant genre. And 3DO was right and better to support them.

I believe, thanks to Japanese/Korean support, 3DO represents a better import experience today. Certainly more enjoyable.

Like I said at the start, I love both platforms, but the fact remains the 3DO was clearly the better machine. Although obscured from gaming history these days, the 3DOs influence on gaming in the past 15 years has been greater than the Jaguars, suggesting that history agrees with me: The 3DO was better.

Having said that, even if the 3DO influenced nothing, the collection of games that it enjoys and the types of games promoted by 3DO, means that it is easier to link back the most modern games consoles to the 3DO (whether they were influenced or not) still meaning that the 3DO was on the right gaming evolutionary path, and therefore, it was better.

The Jaguar was the last flurry in the pre-CD age of games machines. It was the end of the dark ages in gaming and the 3DO represented the age of reason and acceptance.

Walter_j64bit · Post by **Walter_j64bit** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:27 pm

Whats new in the 3DO Homebrew Projects?

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:37 pm

I think you just hit a raw nerve !

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:25 pm

3DO was the much better console during '93 - '96. Until homebrew becomes a reality though, the Jag has the edge presently in as far as there are several new games to play (although it seems more Jag cd as of late) I too love both, but do enjoy the 3DO more thanks to it's import scene, rich audio, 3rd party support (EA, Crystal) larger & more varied library, wide # of controllers, etc ... Again though, wanna stress I am a fan of both!

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:29 pm

Walter_j64bit wrote:Whats new in the 3DO Homebrew Projects?

We have a count down timer. It's awesome. It's top secret Russian 3do homebrew project. However, if i was to share it with you, we would have to kill you. Yes -- it's that good.

Post by **3DO Experience** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:15 pm

HAHA! There is a count down? *ducks and covers* I figured there is another one on the way but I had no clue there is a set date of release.

doctorclu · Post by **doctorclu** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:27 pm

Wow all that 3DO build up and Walter nails it with one question.

Well what is the amatuer programming scene like in the 3DO? What is the programming language like, what ways are there to load Amateur 3DO games? A really wanted to open this thread back up to ask a question like Socrates used to ask "what makes you so wise?" So in this one "What makes the 3DO so good (compared the Jaguar)?"

Looking forward to learning more.

Jaguar has been a rocky road for sure. A game system that CAN do 64 bit quality gaming, and yet, done with quite a juggling act that has only recently been discovered how to tap properly.

It's like in the 16/32 age of gaming someone said "Here is this 64 bit car, which cruises at 16/32 bit, but once you kick in the nitrus goes 64 bit."

"When can you kick in the Nitrus?"

"When you throw it out of 16/32 bit gear."

So yeh the Jaguar is a glammed up ST/Amiga... which is not horrible, it's just that when the Jaguar DOES shine, it really shines (Rayman, Tempest 2K, Battlesphere are the ones that immediately come to mind). And those cool 16/32 bit games generally were given a little extra OOMF over the other 16/32 bit counterparts, bits were that Nitrus kicks in.

One of the reasons I like Surrounded so much though a demo is how the game shows the smooth gameplay possible when all the chipset are working together as intended as Gorf figured out. Neat stuff.

The fun of the Jaguar is games it has, but to me the other aspect as we learn together is what the Jaguar might still be able to do.

In the development scene it was learned fairly early on you could load into the 2 mb ram and make some games for the Jaguar loading through the controller port at amazing speeds. It's funny to me that the serial port is broken and does good to load at 38K baud, but the controller port can load things in at speeds that far surpass that. Just funny.

We worked on ways to bypass the encryption for the CD rom development, and for the cartridge development, and then over time, we were lucky enough to find that encryption for both.

Tools were a bit long in the tooth for programming, but now we actually have more updated development programming environments being made. Lately with the Skunkboard has opened up a few more ideas, and the Compact Flash is always at least a gleam of hope for new hardware ideas. Been really exciting to see all this come about.

So many sometime in the next few year the Jaguar will see some creative games spring up, and maybe even reach the number of games the 3DO enjoys.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:10 pm

Agreed I think it's better at home brew is better. It doesn't make it better but it certainly makes it more interesting.

The 3DO is locked and encrypted. We haven't been so lucky with the release of the keys. We've had some games published (of various quality) over the past couple of years. Ice breaker 2 was probably the highest quality. A team of Russian guys have bypassed the encryption but they keep that a closely guarded secret. Sadly.

Walter_j64bit · Post by **Walter_j64bit** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:16 pm

3DOKid wrote:Agreed I think it's better at home brew is better. It doesn't make it better but it certainly makes it more interesting.

The 3DO is locked and encrypted. We haven't been so lucky with the release of the keys. We've had some games published (of various quality) over the past couple of years. Ice breaker 2 was probably the highest quality. A team of Russian guys have bypassed the encryption but they keep that a closely guarded secret. Sadly.

Too bad they should share that bypassed

but its their bypass they can do what they want with it.

I like seeing new games come to old systems, the Atari 2600 has new games like every week it seem like. The 7800 encrypted key was found some time back and it was shared with the community now they are making games left and right for it.

Post by **3DO Experience** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:37 pm

It's nice to have a system that all you need is the cart and a catbox and you can make games for it. Right now we had the software and docs but we need to be able to "encrypt" the games. There is at least one person on this forum who has (or claims to have) a legit copy what we need from 3DObut he refuses to release it. So we are forced to live in the dark ages of homebrew... really sucks to have a system like this and not be able to tap it. But then again we really can't program straight for the chips either so we're stuck either way.

And I personally think this whole big thing with Jaguar vs. 3DO here was Kid's slick trick to get you guys to joining us. Thanks for coming BTW.

Sauron · Post by **Sauron** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:41 am

I think 3DOKid brings up a lot of good points. I just don't agree with his overall assessment.

The Jaguar had quite a few genre-defining/redefining games in its own right. I think the influence of games like Tempest 2000, AvP, Rayman, etc cannot be understated. DoctorClu also brings up a good point. There sure are a lot of stinkers on the Jag, but the games that do shine, shine very brightly. I think the classic games on the Jag outshine pretty much anything on the 3DO, particularly in their influence in modern gaming.

There's one point, however, that I can't disagree with, and that would be the 3DO's advantage in having a CD-based unit. One of the biggest gripes about the Jag is that is was a cart-based unit, which really hampered it in so many ways. I know Atari did it (among many other shortcuts with the Jag) to cut costs, but those shortcuts came back to bite them in the ass.

Despite that, though, I'd have to say that the Jaguar has an edge over the 3DO overall in the annals of history, primarily due to the strength of its top games.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:41 am

Just curious Sauron, how many 3DO games do you own?

Sauron · Post by **Sauron** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:34 am

Trev wrote:Just curious Sauron, how many 3DO games do you own?

None whatsoever, so I must admit that my opinion of each console against the other is pretty lopsided. However, I'm not totally unfamiliar with the 3DO either. I've had several friends who owned one, and one in particular had a pretty large selection of games. My biggest gripe with the system was the crap control, which I think really affected my opinion of the gameplay of many of the games (especially SFII). I don't know how many different controllers there were for the system, though, and I'm also not sure if the different models each had different controllers. If I remember correctly, both of my friends had Goldstar units (the one with the VLM-like thing).

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:00 am

I appreciate your honesty Sauron (great name btw). Many wouldn't admit to a fact that made their arguments seem weak.

Seriously though, it's good that thus far we've attracted top tier Jag fans more interested in honest discussion than rabid fanboyism ... much appreciated.

It is too bad about your controller experiences as the 3DO has a huge array of pads, including numerous 6 button, a wireless, Snes pad adapters, Arcade sticks, a light gun, a mouse, a wheel (*RARE*) etc ... Much variety!

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:09 am

Capcom made a specific 6 button controller for SSF II on the 3DO which was a nice piece of kit.There are slight controller differences between the models - the original panasonic and Goldstar controllers had the headphone jack and volume controls - put on a decent pair of headphones and enjoy your games in Dolby surround - very nice. The later Panasonic controllers were slightly smaller and had this feature removed to cut costs.

You really need to play some of the games - see the kid's top 50 countdown on youtube as a guide.

The gameshow games were way ahead of their time and had very high production values Twisted , Zhadnost and Station Invasion

Need For Speed on the 3DO was a unique experience - vastly superior to many ports. There were a lot of games specifically written for the 3DO which ported very poorly to other consoles - Wing Commander III , Return Fire , Space Hulk and of course Madden.
The 3DO version of Madden was considered the finest version until the PS2 version.Its 3D rendered sprites looking better and running smoother than the attempted polygons in later versions until PS2.One thing the 3DO was designed to do better than the other consoles (including the Jag) was in game FMV - the best example of which is Space Hulk. As the sprite based enemies reach hand to hand combat proximity the machine seamlessy switches to an interactive FMV rendered enemy which did not affect gameplay but removed up close pixillation.
Need For Speed featured great footage of the real cars and an FMV opponent that was not there in other versions. The cars handled with real physics ie: the back of the Porsche would swing out if it cornered incorrectly or the Viper would oversteer etc. It was a true simulation not an arcade racer. Much of this was removed from the Saturn , PS One ports and even the PC versions.
In effect Space Hulk was not just a FPS but an RTS and Need For Speed was much more than an arcade racer it was a sim.
Even games like Casper actually look better on the 3DO. Gex was originally intended as 3DO's mascot and only got ported elsewhere when Crystal Dynamics and 3DO had a very public falling out - it's still the best version.
Comparing the 3DO to the Jag is fair - both were underdeveloped and underutilised - but you need to spend time with both to understand this.
Comparing it to the PS and Saturn is a moot point - it was 2 years ahead of these systems - they were designed to beat the 3DO - M2 was the one designed to beat them - and it slots in between N64 and Dreamcast in power. The Jag never had the upgradability beyond the CD add on - the 3DO was long term contender that fell victim to politics.

Sauron · Post by **Sauron** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:08 am

Don't get me wrong here. Although I've never owned a 3DO, I did spend plenty of time with many of the games. I've played Need For Speed, and will easily say it was the best racer of its generation. I never played any of the ports to the other systems, so I couldn't say how it stacked up to those.

Return Fire is one I always wanted to play but never got a chance to on any console. If I ever pick up a 3DO, that's the first game I want to get.

I wasn't aware of the 6 button controller for SSFIITurbo. I used the standard controller, which I thought was awful.

I was completely unimpressed with most of the 2D games I had seen on the 3DO, including Gex. I think there was another one called The Horde (or something to that effect) that had some promise, but I think the Jag thoroughly handled the 3DO in regards to its 2D games as well as potential.

mattyg, you're certainly right about comparing both systems to the Saturn and PSX. The Jag and 3DO beat the bigger names to the marketplace by 2 years. Even with that being the case, though, I thought they both could have been good challengers hardware-wise had everything else fallen into place.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:20 am

Gex is actually pretty good. I don't say that lightly. That said, I agree Rayman and Pitfall look amazing. Not so sure about Pitfalls playability mind you but still, granted, the Jag does an amazing job of making them look drop-dead-georgous. Power Drive Rally also looks amazing.

For my money the only 2D games that have equally marveled me graphically have been things on the PS2 - noticeably GrimGrimoire that has that same depth of colour the Jag has and PS1 and the Saturn failed to deliver (but the Jag had in spades.)

StreetFighter 2 with the standard 3Do pad is a dogs-dinner. With the official Arcade stick (or any arcade stick) it's very very good. As is Samurai Shodown.

2D was where the Jag and the 3DO went wrong. Both machines had pretty amazing 2D capabilities, but somehow got dragged into a 3D fight. I guess it's what everyone (Industry, game players, public, developers) wanted, still, it's a shame.

Although fighting a 3D war with 2D games didn't help NeoGeo.

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:29 am

Absolutely agree with you on most of those points - The Horde was a great strategy game that was ported from an older PC version - just like Star Control II it had awesome gameplay but a let down in the graphics department. Another 3DO gem that seems to have been left out during recent conversations is Bladeforce. It was a nice looking game with an awesome graphics engine , however , it has a laughable "story" !

Also whilst many of the import games were terrible some were simply groundbreaking - the graphics of Grand Chef were not matched in my opinion by any RPG until "Ocarina of Time" and Dr Hauzer is a survival horror classic. This is another difference in the Jag/ 3DO story - 3DO's business model originally relied on third party publishers and it had smallish but significant cult following in Japan that was supported by their publishers and also to a lesser extent in Korea where some original games did emerge.

On another note:
Take a look at the IMSA Racing footage on youtube posted by one of our members - It is the truest indication yet of the potential that was the M2.

doctorclu · Post by **doctorclu** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:41 am

Eh, I like 2D games. You have to think too much in 3D games.

Been interesting to hear this. A counter point and a question.

Jaguar controller, granted there were a lot of choices for many other systems than the Jaguar, but for starters, the Jaguar had the standard controller (which has been found that people with normal to large hands liked, small handed people not so much) and the procontroller with the extra buttons.

That was the start.

I have the SuperMas prostick, which a arcade panel joystick and buttons convertered to work on the Jaguar. Nice nice. That one has rapid fire as well.

Third party then or now? Back in the past there was the blackhawk flight stick. There have been other controllers brought over to the Jag-side. A lot of arcade stick and rapid fire possibilities, the boomerang stick (a controller without the numberpad).

A lot of rotary productions by fans for Tempest 2000.

And as for light guns, nothing in big numbers, but thanks to Matthias we have the way to hack existing guns and how to make light gun games.

Soooo... that said, my question...

The upgrade path of the 3DO, that was interesting. How was the 3DO upwardly expandable? An open bus for processor upgrades?

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:19 am

The expansion ports were designed to allow the future add ons to effictively bypass the motherboard and simply use the CD Drive - emulation of previous software was never an issue due to the Operating System.

The only difference internally between the Add on and a stand alone M2 would have been just the interface and the absence of the CD Drive.

MPEG 2 was to be standard on the M2 - the later kiosk units I believe had DVD !

As for third party controllers - 3DO had some nice ones - Hori and Logitech were amongst them - I am quite fond of the Logitech.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned much was the 3DO blaster card by Creative. I it was sold as a stand alone card set up with software and a controller with an optional CD drive if your existing one wasn't compatible. No need to worry about an emulator just play your 3DO games directly on your PC ! It was certainly an interesting concept that unfortunately was too little too late (a bit like the Jag CD!)

Oh and don't forget the 3DO had its own "VLM" built in out of the box from day one - I once heard the 3DO described when an audio CD was inserted as "the most expensive Lava Lamp money can buy"

Post by **3DOKid** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:28 am

The Jag and the 3DO owned CD play screens for years. The saturns dancing rocket-ship was definitely a WTF moment for me. And the PS1 didn't even manage that.

doctorclu · Post by **doctorclu** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:34 am

LOL!! Yeh go us on the VLM experience.

(Jaguar and 3DO)

So how was the 3DO for CD+G Kareokee discs?

Post by **3DOKid** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:40 am

I think 'adequate' sums it up nicely. Like Kodac Photo CDs. If you have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do better, CDGs and Photo CDs on the 3DO can kill 5 maybe 10 minutes.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:49 am

I still reckon owning a 3DO and Jag today is almost essential. What one doesn't have the other does.

3Dag? JaO? or something clever (think Wii60)

doctorclu · Post by **doctorclu** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:58 am

A Jag-DO.

Hmmm... you know, with those expansion ports on the 3DO, wonder if there is a video in feed? Make a Jaguar 3DO amalgam.

UK3DOFAN · Post by **UK3DOFAN** » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:56 pm

3DOKid you seem to think the Jaguar is better than the Saturn and other consoles apart from the 3DO.

Sorry i completely disagree, I think most consoles were better than the Jag like for example 3DO, PS1, Dreamcast, Saturn, N64, Gamecube, Xbox, SNES, Megadrive, NES are all surperior to the Jag with much better games catalogues.

Concentrating on the Saturn these titles are superior to any Jag games like Panzer Dragoon Saga, Virtua Fighter 2, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Sega Rally, Exhumed, Burning Rangers, Nights, Radiant Silvergun, Virtua Cop 1 and 2, Sonic R and the Capcom/SNK beat em ups had far better 2D than the Jaguar was capable of.

Only console released by a big company that the Jag can live upto and not a proper console at that just an add on is the 32X and thats debatable

Post by **3DO Experience** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:27 am

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:45 am

3DO Experience wrote:

swaaye · Post by **swaaye** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:54 pm

Kolibri on 32X is the finest shooter of all time so 32X beats Jaguar, I'm sorry. That game is just pure curiosity while at the same time being surprisingly fun.

3DO is the embodiment of all that was wrong with many game developers during the early/mid '90s so it has a special place in my heart due to that. It is the ultimate FMV showcase system. Lots of curiosities there too! It definitely satisfies my thirst for the occasional bizarre video game.

Post by **3DOKid** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:18 pm

Peoples opinions of the 3DO (and the Jag) represent all that is wrong with the Internet in my honest opinion.

Generally people waft about about on the web repeating tidbits of information they found in other forums that have no basis in reality, history or the truth.