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Did I deserve this -- honestly?

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:15 am
by 3DOKid

I did try and be balanced, I even decided against the 3DO vs Jag thread initially.

And that Jaguarfan got banned because I thought he was con artist. That's why I didn't like him. And I stand by that. the little creep is pestering me via YouTube now. I still think he's a crook.

Anyway, it's all a bit upsetting.

I'm going to rethink what I'm doing. Perhaps not waste any more time.

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:27 am
by mattyg
just let it slide

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:06 pm
by KevInCal
Just try to be a bit less biased against the Jag, 3DOKid. ;) It's not nice to create a Jag forum on a 3DO message board, invite Jag fans over, to have us read topics like "the 3DO is better than the Jag, right?" A topic like that belongs in the 3DO section... I noticed another comment / post or 2 from you where you come off as extremely biased.

Yes I read you have a Jag collection etc. Still from comments I've seen you make, you aren't much of a fan of the Jag...

Maybe I'm being over-critical. I'm not defending Jaguarfan as I don't know him or what happened. You guys don't seem like jerks to me, it just irked me a little certain topics and comments about the Jag. ;) But overall I like this forum and I do also have a 3DO and a lot of games and quite like the system. ;) I do apologise if my comments were disrespectful at JSII. I say crap I don't mean sometimes... I have a fiery temper. :lol: And I'm a big Jag fan. But you won't see me posting a topic in your 3DO forum, "Jag is better than 3DO, right?" :lol:

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:54 pm
by 3DOKid
The early posts were designed to stimulate conversation, not to challenge a frankly bizarre belief system but that was obviously what happened.

To be honest, it's a bit creepy that people can't tolerate a little bit of criticism over a games console that by anyones admission wasn't exactly perfect. I'll be the first to stand up and say the 3DO was shit, but like the Jag, it has a charm, warts and all. That's the truth. Is that so hard to say? Believe? understand? I mean c'mon?

If you are representative of Jagfans (and probably you aren't) but if you are, you seem baulk at every truth or question. Is it really necessary to sugar coat ever technical question about the Atari Jaguar -- just so you don't offend the fans?

What Atari Jaguar Fundamentalists? They are going to declare a holy war on me?

I thought (emphasis added), the textures on the Jaguar are going to be rubbish compared to the 3DO because the 3DO had Two Accelerated Video Co-Processors designed i believed to do texture mapping. The Atari Jaguar does not.

The texture mapping in Need For Speed, Hauzer, Road Rash, Wing Commander III was much better than anything (and I have the games you mention for the Jag) than anything the Jag could do.

On the other hand, the Jag does have the Tom chip, although no mention of textures in it's spec, it does mention Goraud shading which is something that looks pretty good but never appears in 3DO games but does appear in Jaguar games a lot. Because, the 3DO, doesn't have that capability in it's chip-set. It also appears that the Jaguar is capable of chucking more polygons about (in practice) than the 3DO.

Is this true?

These questions are not jabs at the Jaguar community or indeed the 3DO community, they are just questions. Observations. Arm chair platform logic if you will.


Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:06 pm
by KevInCal
The Jag and the 3DO "shit"? That's not a fact imo. ;) They are mediocre systems, far from shit because both have a dozens of great games. I dunno, it just seems like you take jabs at the Jag in a roundabout way. ;) I mean obviously you are a bigger fan of the 3DO than the Jag. Just like I'm obviously a bigger fan of the Jag than 3DO. BUT I only take jabs at the 3DO and its downfalls in response to someone taking jabs at the Jag. I know its all pointless but really most conversations online about videogames are pointless, just to argue and waste time etc. :)

I just thought it was funny you went to Atari Age to promote this Jaguar section at your 3DO forum. And one of the first things I noticed when I came here was the feel of this forum was more like an "assurance" forum for 3DO fans to agree with each other about how the 3DO is better than the Jag. ;) I say the systems are pretty equal when all is said and done. Especially when you factor in the price people paid for the systems. The 3DO costing most people a small fortune. You got a lot for your money with the Jag. But ya, the 3DO has the edge in game library and has more good games than the Jag. Not by a huge margin though..

But after all is said and done, I tend to take things too seriously sometimes, and I've come to enjoy participating at this forum.

As for your technical questions, that's not really my forte. I do know that the Jag and 3DO are TOTALLY different beasts. I will give the 3DO this, I love the high resolution its games run in. Technically I do think theJag has more horsepower, but 3DO games tend to be more refined. I think developers were able to get great performance out of the 3DO, whereas not so much with the Jag, as it was a bitch to develope for.

In the end of the obvious advantage the 3DO had was it was CD based from the get go. You can put so much more into a CD game than a cart game. The potential of the Jag CD was never even close to seen as it came out less than 6 months before Atari died.

The dev team that made Need For Speed and other impressive games on the 3DO could pull of the same on the Jag CD given sufficient time, I know that much. Personally I think the Jag CD and 3DO could pull off most of the things the PlayStation and Saturn did quite well. They are definitely in the same league. Even the 32X could hold its own, with great ports of Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter, and some impressive 2d games. And the 32X is obviously not as powerful as the Jag or 3DO.

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:48 pm
by Lemmi
its plain to see the 3do is better than the Jag

im not biased and im not going to go into details as to why one is better than the other

lets just say the best has never been brought out on either system, unless you count BSG on the jag, but thats not a commercially released game when the system was on shelves so i dont count that but it is a good example of what could be done on the Jag if you were given 2 years to make something :lol: :P

but in the End Atari killed the Jaguar alone and the person who said $700 is the starting price for a 3DO and almost every other cheaper system killed the 3DO

ive had fun with both systems, but my 3do has been hooked up since i bought it and the jag hasnt (both were bought within 2 months of eachother) and being a fan of the Jag i would never sign up or visit JSII :lol: :shock: :P

all this is MOO anyway, you know like a cows opinion it doesnt matter, its MOO

and drugs are great
kids do drugs

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:20 am
by KevInCal
If it weren't for the fact that the 3DO was overpriced for so long, I would also say the 3DO is better. The fact that the 3DO has more good games than the Jag doesn't outweigh it's CONSIDERABLY higher price in the mid 90's... I mean c'mon, $250 Jag vs. $700 3DO. The 3DO is not even close to 2 times as good as the Jag, let alone 3 times.

I do admit the 3DO has a better library than the Jag, but that is dwindling every year thanks to the nice homebrew support the Jag gets whereas new 3DO games are nonexistent.

Oh and the Jag controller is better than the 3DO controller. Not by a lot, but the fact remains Jag controller has a lot more buttons, and they do help on a lot of games and the d pad isn't as bad as the 3DO d pad... just my opinion of course. ;)

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:04 am
by desiv
Funny. the reason I didn't buy a Jag when I had a chance was the controller.

Admittedly, I haven't used one, but I looked at it and said "too many buttons, the games must be overly complicated."

Of course, I always thought those type of arguments were kind of dumb. Which is better.

It's not like it's Amiga vs ST, where the Amiga is obviously soooo much better it's not even funny.


Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:14 am
by UnholyTancred
3DOKid wrote:

I did try and be balanced, I even decided against the 3DO vs Jag thread initially.

And that Jaguarfan got banned because I thought he was con artist. That's why I didn't like him. And I stand by that. the little creep is pestering me via YouTube now. I still think he's a crook.

Anyway, it's all a bit upsetting.

I'm going to rethink what I'm doing. Perhaps not waste any more time.

Most elitist people I've ever come across. More elitist than Nazis!
The 3DO is not even close to 2 times as good as the Jag, let alone 3 times.
Oh and the Jag controller is better than the 3DO controller.

Re: Did I deserve this -- honestly?

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:50 am
by Mobius
3DOKid wrote:

I did try and be balanced, I even decided against the 3DO vs Jag thread initially.

And that Jaguarfan got banned because I thought he was con artist. That's why I didn't like him. And I stand by that. the little creep is pestering me via YouTube now. I still think he's a crook.

Anyway, it's all a bit upsetting.

I'm going to rethink what I'm doing. Perhaps not waste any more time.
I don't get it, what's upsetting?

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:11 pm
by 3DO Experience
Where to start?....

Well for one I think that this all started with good intentions but there were some possible mistakes made in the first few days that snowballed a little and we've had a bumpy ride since then. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea of starting a Jag section was to provide a place where fans of BOTH systems would not be shunned and haters of one system or the other would be the minority/disregarded.

When the whole Jag vs 3DO locked thread thing came up I did a face-palm. This was surely a topic that would eventually come up (hell it even came up in this thread) but to bring it up and then lock the thread as to say "this can't be discussed" only brought it to the surface. I know it was eventually unlocked but it was a topic many of us probably hoped to avoid for as long as possible.

Part of our (3DO crowd) problem is our humor. We all pretty much get the jokes, saying one thing meaning another, being overly exaggerated on things, ect. But some comments have come off as harsh when talking about the Jag. We all joke around here and long time members get it when we aren't serious but there are bunches of new members coming in and they don't know how things are here. There was one instance when we pulled a "ban request" on a newer member. Yes it was funny (to us) and it we explained eventually that we weren't serious BUT this time it's not one person, it's a group that haven't been here long enough to get our brand of humor. So they might mistakingly take offense. As well as the Jag fans that come to just read and feel there is a bad taste here. We know they exist because they post in their own forums about us.

Sauron is a global moderator on AtariAge and he even is quoted as saying:
Sauron wrote:...the Jag community is one of the nastiest of any classic system. I'm not sure you're all quite aware of what you guys are getting yourselves into by inviting Jag fans over here. :D
I'm not saying all of them are bad, KevInCal is in my opinion the best Jag contributer we have so far, but in majority Jag fans (in forums) can be quite terrible. I have asked questions and the response I sometimes get is just being led to an Atari forum and my previous experience, everyone seemed to be filled with hate for anything not Jag and then they would even turn on themselves, just kept me from going there.

Some 3DO defenders can be nasty but I like to think that most of us are fair, the whole "3Do was actually better - wasn't it?" was funny to us because we know it was a joke, but this probably kept those fair-minded people of the Jag community to shy away thinking that it would be just another system hating forum.

We all have our favorites, personally the NES is mine followed by 3DO, DreamCast, Saturn and filling in the fifth slot the Jaguar. I'm not saying the NES was the best console, IMO the DC was, but even I can argue with myself on that given the NES-maina or the Atari CVS/2600 has been reported as not been given up on until after 14 years, despite the crash.
My point is that this place should be about those who can enjoy both Jaguar and 3DO regardless of which they like better, and negativities should be placed aside. Even in jest our off-putting should be toned down so that new members don't get the wrong idea about us.


Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
by Mobius
I must have missed something, because I still don't get it. I had no idea there was drama going on. But then, I'm not much for drama. Especially internet drama.

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:36 pm
by desiv
I clicked the link and read some of the posts.
For the most part, I thought it was pretty good.
There were a few (what's the European phrase??) Tossers (??) there, but there was some guidance and suggestions pushing the right direction too..

So, on the whole, I didn't think it was too bad.

Then again, I'm used to some pretty bad trolls from my days in the Fidonet Amiga/ST wars (it wasn't pretty, and I still wake up screaming "no one uses MIDI" from time to time..) and I tend to ignore them, regardless of their console-affiliation.

I realize some people apparently don't catch the humor around here (I'm looking at YOU KevInCal!! ;-) ), but I think it should flow.

After reading the Kid's posts, I realized he was a Jag fan right away, but I don't hold it against him. (There's some humor in that line.. Well, OK, not much, but still.. :-) )

Apparently a lot of people think that if you prefer one system, you can't be a fan on another.. Weird, but oh well...

In the words of a great American (M.C. Hammer): "It's all good!"


Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:12 pm
by BryWI
3DO Experience wrote:Where to start?....

Well for one I think....
Well said.

Sarcasm and humor on the net will always be taken the wrong way. Text is not a good medium for truly conveying meanings. 5 people can read something 5 different ways.

I personaly welcome the Jaguar forum because I know nothing about the Jaguar. I have never played Jaguar nor seen one in real life. I always like to learn new info. The forum will give me a chance to do that.

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:56 pm
by KevInCal
"Text is not a good medium for truly conveying meanings."

THAT is exactly why I use smilies all of the time. It helps to communicate a lot better. ;)

I'm guilty of using the internet as a release of pent up, whatever. So if someone just barely pushes my buttons I tend to go over the top. It hasn't helped that I was sick all last week, every little thing getting to me...

I think the Jag and 3DO are both cool. And that's it. 8)

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:01 pm
by 3DOKid
What 3DOExperience said.

This is why i didn't want the 3DO vs Jag thread. i couldn't trust myself. (Let's not even imagine, for a second, a Saturn vs PSX thread. Gnashing of teeth, ash on head, the lot -- fire and brimstone, lions and lambs laying down together... creating, erm, Limbs...) ;)

I think we'll stick this out as we are. 3DO+ (Jag) I do love my jag. I do. I use Checkered Flag as ambiance. I get drunk and watch AvP with a silly smile. (like others watch porn) I loaded the 5% complete port of Frontier and was impressed. Despite everything. (pretty smooth right? It's not that smooth on my 4Mb STe)

That said, both consoles are flawed. Jag and 3DO. Same as FM towns, Pippin, CD32, NeoGeo CD were all flawed. They're all rubbish. But in the same way a 1982 Lotus Esprit is rubbish. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For my money. They are the greatest consoles in the world. Personality. Experimental games. Classic arguments. Still bitching, after 16 years, about textures and Goraud shading -- how cool is that? I mean the 360/PS3 crowd only ever moan about DLC and custom soundtracks. Their little hearts get all a flutter when someone mentions 'tearing'. Not us! We can still yell at the keyboard, hold our heads high and scream blue-murder (with CAPS-LOCK) over databuses, customer chips, audio chips... it's just better. (just a pity about the games)

What hurt the most was the 3DOKid should be 3DOAdult I mean... these are 'games' machines... :wink:

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:07 pm
by KevInCal
lol, sorry about that. ;) Honestly I thought you were younger but I guess you are actually in your 30's. :lol: Take what I say with a grain of salt. ;) Well said about the classic systems too.

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:27 pm
by doctorclu
I still don't hate you 3DOKid. :P

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:31 pm
by doctorclu
3DOKid wrote:What 3DOExperience said.

This is why i didn't want the 3DO vs Jag thread. i couldn't trust myself.
Eh, I liked the debate and was one of the people who helped encourage the opening of the thread here. I love the Jaguar, wanted to hear what the ED0 was about and how it compared, and got some good insight.

I think in some ways the ED0 has a lot of awesome advnatages over the Jaguar (still I don't need another game system so I will stick with the Jaguar) and when the dev community starts up on the ED0 it will be awesome.

Now if I were to jump ships for a better game system, that would be for the Dreamcast. And so help me, if a good Jaguar emulator was ever managed on the Dreamcast... LOL!!

I came close once. But then I had to keep a Jaguar for Bubsy, and that kept me in the Jaguar scene. ;)

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:30 pm
As far am i am concerned the 3DO kills the Jaguar.

Just like the N64 when everyone else was going to CD atari stuck with cartridges and when they did release a CD add on(add ons never take off) it was way too late.

I hated the design of the atari joypad it looks dreadful just like the jaguar, the worst controller ever released, the cd add on looks like a toilet too.

Game wise 3DO games were way ahead we have some lovely texture mapped games like need for speed while the jag still had bare looking polygons with hardly any texture mapping check fight for life for example, it's just awful.

I remember reading 3DO magazine and they were comparing ports to the PS1 and how superior they were on the 3DO, the PS1 and saturn had lots of games ported to it from the 3DO, what JAG games were ported to Ps1 and saturn, hardly any if any at all.

3DO's multimedia capabilities influenced the PS3, what has the JAG influenced, NOTHING! , it's one of the biggest flops in atari's career and helped the tramiel family to decide they wanted out.

The 3DO was way ahead of it's time and is one of my all time favourite consoles.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:07 pm
by Devin
Welcome to the forum! It's great to see the UK massive increasing in numbers :)

I wouldn't go that far praising the multimedia capabilities of 3DO as an influence for the PS3. The all in one box has been a buzz word in the industry for decades, even before the 3DO. Although it wasn't until the 90's that this was put into practical terms such as 'set top boxes', which I would argue have only just matured. Now we have SKY Boxes capable of recording video down the wire, instant pause and even games in a limited fashion.

These days I am using my PS3 for pretty much everything, as a jukebox, videos, DVD, Blu-Ray, internet and the odd game! So your right that it's the culmination of what the 3DO line of consoles (and sequels!) wanted to be. Although I would put the efforts of Philips Media ahead of Panasonic. They invented the CD and as good as DVD, incorporated PhotoCD into the CD-i format and even experimented with beaming live video down a phone wire. Using a CD-i console I might add!

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:32 am
by 3DO Experience
Yeah I know quite a few people that bought a PS3 because they wanted to use it as a media center, but most of them have it sitting there collecting dust.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:29 am
by 3DOKid
3DO Experience wrote:Yeah I know quite a few people that bought a PS3 because they wanted to use it as a media center, but most of them have it sitting there collecting dust.
mine is used daily, I love it, it's the bestest of best things i ever had. (needs a 320Gb drive mind you and I hope it gets hacked one day!)