What model is the backup battery?

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tron2005
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What model is the backup battery?

Post by tron2005 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:04 am

Ok guys i couldnt find this at all searching through the forums what is the model of the backup battery in the Panasonic FZ1 ? CR2032? CR2354?

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Post by 3DO Experience » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:47 am

it's a CR2354
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Post by Lemmi » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:01 am

3DO Experience wrote:it's a CR2354
you know you would think that would be mentioned somewhere in the world of google or on this site, but all it ever says is blah blah blah Ram (battery backup)
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Post by Mobius » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:28 am

Wait, what? The 3DO has NVRAM. It doesn't need a battery.

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Post by 3DOKid » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:27 am

...this means one has died. i.e. run out of power.

I refuse to believe this liar.

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Post by WindowsKiller » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:01 pm

Mobius wrote:Wait, what? The 3DO has NVRAM. It doesn't need a battery.
NVRAM only means non-volatile RAM. It doesn't say anything about the technology behind. You probably think of flash memory, but that wasn't used back then. The 3DO's NVRAM is simply implemented as conventional RAM with a backup battery.

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Post by tron2005 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:40 pm

Thanks i though i was going crazy that i could not find any reference to the battery model.

yes the NVRAM needs the battery to maintain the memory..

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Post by Mobius » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:06 am

WindowsKiller wrote:
Mobius wrote:Wait, what? The 3DO has NVRAM. It doesn't need a battery.
NVRAM only means non-volatile RAM. It doesn't say anything about the technology behind. You probably think of flash memory, but that wasn't used back then. The 3DO's NVRAM is simply implemented as conventional RAM with a backup battery.

Errr... "Non-volatile" inherently means that it doesn't lose its data when it loses power, so no battery needed. If there is a battery needed for the 3DO's memory, then my system must have a hell of one in it, because I've never needed to replace it in the 9 years I've had it!

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Post by 3DO Experience » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:13 am

3DO needs no battery to remember data, that is the point of NVRAM. Why there is a battery in the 3DO (FZ-01 at least) is beyond me. I just know it has a fixed one on the main board and that it's a CR2354. I should have stated that it is not a backup battery when the question was asked.
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Post by Lemmi » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:37 am

-32kb battery backed up SRAM

from section 3.16
http://classicgaming.gamespy.com/View.p ... 2#section3


i dont understand console technical data to much, but what does the SRAM do for the system and why does it need a battery?
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Post by Mobius » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:16 am

Lemmi wrote:-32kb battery backed up SRAM

from section 3.16
http://classicgaming.gamespy.com/View.p ... 2#section3


i dont understand console technical data to much, but what does the SRAM do for the system and why does it need a battery?
Well, the answer of what SRAM does for the 3DO is pretty simple... Nothing. Since it doesn't use SRAM. That page is just wrong. :) [Correction: Actually, it's me who was wrong! It seems it is SRAM with a battery.]

But in more general terms, SRAM is a type of volatile RAM, in that it will lose its data if it loses power. Therefore, it needs a battery to supply it power when the system is off or unplugged. NVRAM (non-volatile RAM) keeps its data even when it loses power.

The 3DO has 32kb of NVRAM, not 32kb of SRAM. There's a whole section on it in the SDK:
Working With NVRAM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Portfolio operating system treats NVRAM-nonvolatile random access memory-as a file system volume. This maintains consistency for I/O operations; you use the same steps for accessing NVRAM as you do for all other files. Portfolio also provides an NVRAM maintenance utility called lmadm. See the 3DO Debugger Programmer's Guide, "Terminal Window Commands," for full details.

A minimally configured 3DO system has at least 32 KB of NVRAM. Application developers can use this facility for persistent storage of small pieces of data. Practical uses include providing a game saving feature, to save user preference settings, or to store application configuration information.
That doesn't really answer the question of why the 3DO has any battery on its motherboard at all, though. A lot of electronics will have batteries on the motherboards to keep an internal clock running, but I have no idea if the 3DO has any sort of internal clock. Maybe files in the NVRAM get timestamps? So, at worst, if the battery dies, then the system's internal clock resets every time you turn it off.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, it's probably a CMOS battery for the BIOS. I can't think of anything that could possibly go wrong when it dies, though. It's not like there are customized BIOS settings that can be lost.
Last edited by Mobius on Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by WindowsKiller » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:53 am

Again, NVRAM is not a technology, it only means "RAM that keeps its data when the system no longer run on mains". How this is achieved is not important.

NVRAM can be flash memory these days, but also SRAM backed up by a battery. And that is exactly what it is in the 3DO, and also in the Sega Saturn, the CD-i, etc.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, it's probably a CMOS battery for the BIOS.
See, this is what you confuse. CMOS is a technology and stands for "complementary metal–oxide–semiconductor". CMOS devices have very low power consumption, and this is why they are often used for... well, guess it... NVRAM. :lol:

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Post by Trev » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:18 pm

NVRAM can be flash memory these days, but also SRAM backed up by a battery. And that is exactly what it is in the 3DO, and also in the Sega Saturn, the CD-i, etc.
Thank goodness I've never run into the same issues w/3DO that I did w/my cd-i! :roll:

So, just for confirmation, has anyone here on the forum ever had the 3DO's memory actually clunk out on them? Amazing that my 15+ year model is still purring like a kitten.

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Post by Mobius » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:42 pm

WindowsKiller wrote:Again, NVRAM is not a technology, it only means "RAM that keeps its data when the system no longer run on mains". How this is achieved is not important.

NVRAM can be flash memory these days, but also SRAM backed up by a battery. And that is exactly what it is in the 3DO, and also in the Sega Saturn, the CD-i, etc.
Oh I see what you're saying now. Really, we're just arguing semantics. I've always taken NVRAM to mean memory that doesn't lose data when it loses power. You're saying NVRAM is memory that doesn't lose data when the main device loses power.

If the 3DO does, indeed, have SRAM with a battery, then the batteries they use must be extremely long-lived. I'm skeptical, but a quick test to remove the battery to see if they lose their saves, or anyone who has personal experience of needing to replace it would settle this pretty quickly.
Last edited by Mobius on Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by WindowsKiller » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:52 pm

But the fact that I've never known a 3DO to lose its data due to a dead battery strongly implies that it does not use battery backed up SRAM and uses some other form of NVRAM.
The battery simply lasts very long. I've heard about a couple of 3DOs that could no longer keep save games.
Last edited by WindowsKiller on Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BryWI » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:52 pm

Mobius wrote: or if someone wants to take the battery out of their 3DO to see what happens to their saves, that would resolve this mystery pretty quickly.
Consider it done. be back soon with an answer.

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Post by Mobius » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:02 pm

Strange, I think my last post got posted early somehow. The now-edited version is what I was actually trying to say. It's mostly the same, though. :)

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Post by BryWI » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:43 pm

the battery was not made to be removeable it seems. it pretty much seems attached. Im gonna attempt removal anyways. DUMB IDEA 09!!!!

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Post by BryWI » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:54 pm

There is definitly no easy way of removing that battery for me. I got no solder skills. My battery was still working though before this attempt.. time to put this back together and see if i broke something. then i will play some Killing Time. heh.

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Post by 3DOKid » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:00 pm

...so the 3do will never lose it's saves?

So this means in 1,000,000 years when they dig up the ol' 3DOkid bones and find my stash of 3DO stored stuff, they will, technology permitting, be able to see my Dr Hauzer saves?

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Post by tron2005 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:01 pm

SRAM is a type of NVRAM "Non Volatile Random Access Memory" meaning that it can be written to over and over and retain it as long as it is getting power to the chip. Basically the Battery is used to maintain the saves, once the battery goes dead or the battery is removed for a long enough period the NVRAM will lose the "Saves" .

The battery is a lithium battery so it will last for a long time. there are batteries like this one in Nintendo NES cartridges that are still holding the saves and they are 20+ years old.

we should start seeing the consoles batteries going dead in the coming years. they were not made to be easily replaced without the right type of soldering iron i pulled one off in about a minute with the right type of soldering iron. i have a friend that his FZ1 Panasonic the battery went dead and we just replaced it that's why i was asking. before his system wouldn't retain the save games after the console was turned off but now it keeps them because we replaced the battery.

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Post by Mobius » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:50 am

tron2005 wrote:before his system wouldn't retain the save games after the console was turned off but now it keeps them because we replaced the battery.
Well, then consider me proven wrong! I wish the Saturn's battery lasted just as long...

Now I wonder what kind of memory is in the memory expansion. :twisted:

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Post by CRV » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:41 am

Crap! The 3DO has a battery? That's the one thing I don't like about the Saturn (especially since my Saturn seems to be malfunctioning in that regard - always forgetting the time and other settings), but at least there it's easily replaceable.

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Post by 3DO Experience » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:36 am

It could be there for when you play a game that needs you to change discs, so the SRAM idea could still be an idea... but the system is still on. It could simply be for brown-outs but I doubt that. Didn't someone win a repair manual and then failed to scan it as promised? Maybe we should ask them.
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Post by bitrate » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:07 am

The CMOS SRAM handles game saves/high scores/etc.




Image

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Post by 3DOKid » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:26 pm

Alright this is interesting - what does the battery backup controller actually do?

(first one to say it "controls the backing up of the battery" gets a lifetime ban) ;)

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Post by 3DO Experience » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:03 pm

grrrr but what is it's function on the 3DO?
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Post by mattyg » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:16 pm

You know how there is always one guy in the room who will always touch something that's marked do not touch.
(first one to say it "controls the backing up of the battery" gets a lifetime ban)
It controls the backing up of the battery

and Oscar Wilde said sarcasm is the lowest form of wit...what did he know?
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Post by 3DOKid » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:47 pm

Didn't the owner of the Rovers Return also say it in Coronation Street?

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Post by WindowsKiller » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:27 pm

3DOKid wrote:Alright this is interesting - what does the battery backup controller actually do?
Monitoring whether the system is mains-powered or not. The battery is not constantly used to power the SRAM, only when the unit is turned off.

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