I think I am old. And gaming is going backwards.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:09 pm

Right, so, I have just completed Zillzone 2, and despite being technically very impressive, the game actually reflects the lead the character:

It's a complete meat-head from start to finish.

It's just endless browns and grey industrial complexes with half a dozen-types of enemies. The story is a none event, basically I'm just shooting stuff and enemies.

And my comrades are the type of friends that you wouldn't be too disappointed if you never saw them again. It's like hanging out with a trigger-happy high-on-speed hulk hogan. You feel ever so awkward when they are around but don't want to say anything because they do help you out.

Never once as any aspect of the game really-really impressed me. Some of the battles are impressive. Technically. Enemies swarming in and displaying some Artificial Intelligence but it's never sunny, it's never pretty (even the Palaces) it's like fighting in a mud bowl all the time. The developers have the freedom to build any world they want, and the build a rotting sugar processing factory?

Going back to the limitations of the 3DO, and thinking about Space Hulk, Space Hulk is still the better game.

The enemies are just as bright. The settings are more impressive. I still recall to this day entering one of the final levels, and it was huge cavernous cathedral-like setting.

And the main characters, despite being meat-heads too in Space Hulk, at least had a real interesting personality: "Purge with Fire brethren" is a cool thing to say. "F**kin' "A" man, his head come-off, I ain't cleanin' that one up" isn't.

And Space Hulk had strategy, Killzone has 'trying-not-to-get-shot'.

Killzones music is very good - if you can hear it above the machine gun fire but Space-Hulks use of stereo and audio depth is far more impressive. The distant sounds, the building of tension, the anticipation created by the audio is Space Hulk is amazing. Killzone has machine gun fire and grenades. It's like no-one thought about it.

The point is, is that Space Hulk was welcomed with a so-so attitude and scored above average and Killzone 2 is considered, by the hype at least a messiah in gaming. And more disurbingly, it's thought to be the best game on PS3 while Space Hulk is not even considered for the 3DO.

Post by **3DO Experience** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:49 pm

SPACE HULK RULES!
and it's funny when your brethren insult you

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:02 am

To answer your question:
Yes and Yes (but so am I and yes I agree)
This type of game is built around licensed engines.
Its no different to the way PS1 gave developers access to extensive graphics libraries causing most of the games to look the same.
The developers will tell you all this is cost effective
I say its lazy.
I hate to say it but your purchase just added to their argument
Quality doesn't always sell - Your Space Hulk argument just exlemplified it
Quality game , quality system but who's heard of it?

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:57 am

You just explained exactly why I don't like most modern action games.

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:14 am

I might also add that many of these up and coming developers and prgrammers have never played or seen much of any games prior to 1999 and probably have never had to program all code from scratch before.
Often limited resources and hardware capability equals inginuity.
Nintendo Wii is a case in point.
Limited hardware R & D
Fraction of Sony's and Microsoft's resources
Should only be a niche player but has outsold its competitors
Case closed
PS I AM NOT a Nintendo fanboy
but I do wish I was playing Road Rash V: Hog City on my Panasonic M4

Post by **3DO Experience** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:32 pm

Fraction? All modern console games are the same old tired games. Sony & Microsoft just have the same old boring types of games. Nintendo can't stop playing in the recycle bin for character genre but at least they are creating entirely new types of games... even if they do seem to be more for the younger generation.

Post by **3DOKid** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:46 pm

3DO Experience wrote:Fraction? All modern console games are the same old tired games. Sony & Microsoft just have the same old boring types of games. Nintendo can't stop playing in the recycle bin for character genre but at least they are creating entirely new types of games... even if they do seem to be more for the younger generation.

or idiots.

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:27 pm

I stand by my comment - Nintendo's resources are a fraction of Sony and Microsoft's. It was only through clever merchandising ie:kids buying licensed pokemon products that kept them afloat following the Virtual Boy and Gamecube fiascos.
Thats one hell of a recycle bin they have full of original EXCLUSIVE characters and franchises too.
Gaming should be for everyone - whether an 8 year old girl or an 88 year old grandmother.
They are no more idiots than those filling the pockets of unimaginative PS3 & 360 developers.
This is why retro is booming (looked at evilbay recently?)
A friend who is quite high up in one of the major gaming retailers here has admitted to me that its the secondhand trading of games and the wii keeping them profitable at the moment

Post by **3DOKid** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:31 pm

mattyg wrote:I stand by my comment - Nintendo's resources are a fraction of Sony and Microsoft's. It was only through clever merchandising ie:kids buying licensed pokemon products that kept them afloat following the Virtual Boy and Gamecube fiascos.
Thats one hell of a recycle bin they have full of original EXCLUSIVE characters and franchises too.
Gaming should be for everyone - whether an 8 year old girl or an 88 year old grandmother.
They are no more idiots than those filling the pockets of unimaginative PS3 & 360 developers.
This is why retro is booming (looked at evilbay recently?)
A friend who is quite high up in one of the major gaming retailers here has admitted to me that its the secondhand trading of games and the wii keeping them profitable at the moment

Ah you see, there is the divide.

1. Gaming isn't for everyone.

Now I'm sure there are a lot of PowerPoint presentations, delivered by ernst looking middle-aged men in sharp suits, suggesting that, yes indeed, the potential market for video games is 6billion but the reality is that simply isn't true.

Now I'll give the benefit of the doubt to nintendo, after-all they got my father, whose last gaming outing was on Pacman of the Atari 2600, to play Wii Sport. However, the reality is, is he won't buy another console, probably ever (he is quite old). Of the others? Those irritating middle-aged women clawing at their youth who spend £200 on a tracksuit to get one-up on next door? Or the easily impressionable people who think Audi and Apple are cool? Or perhaps the aging gamers who can no longer be arsed to read the manual or who don't want to play Psycho-monkeys 4 in front of the precious little 4 year olds?

The Wii will be the last console they buy for a long time. In the meantime even die hard Nintendo fans have been ignored and abandoned by Nintendo. Out there, some-where, where is cautionary tale of ignoring your core market.

2. Gaming isn't for everyone. (It's an important point so I'll make it twice)

It isn't. It's for me. And it's for my kind. It's a leisure pursuit for people who aren't brave enough to go bungee-jumping or white-water-riding but then aren't brain-dead enough to die in front of the T.V.

It's for geeks. Geeks with delusions of grandeur. geeks who want to take part, safely, in their heroic fantasies. They want to shoot the bad guys, drive the faster car, save the Princess (yes even Nintendo fans), stop the Alien invasion, and journey to distant moon to sell drugs to aliens and ultimately quest with Goblins.

Gaming is an extension of Fantasy/Scifi OR it's been a cerebal challenge or the best of both. Which is, predominately, the domain of geeks. And geeks are nothing, if they are passionately enthusiastic.

The greatest games have pandered to these lusts and that enthusiasm.

Cooking Mama? Nintendogs? Wii Fit? Lummies?

But what's happening is gaming is drawing to the middle ground. The nightmare is that Killzone 2 is Cooking Mama with more brown and space marines. It's average. It's more real. It's easier to play. It's less fantasy, it's less scientific, it's less geeky. It's an FPS for the masses and it's designed to appeal to the none-thinking-sheeple that constantly crush society with their idiotic whims and utter lack of personality and decision. Grey is not a f**king colour. MTV is actually pretty dull. And the last decent Audi was made in 1985.!

...I'm sure I was originally arriving at a point.

cybdmn · Post by **cybdmn** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:40 pm

3DOKid wrote:And the last decent Audi was made in 1985.!

And Apple is not Apple Computers anymore.

My impression of the gaming market today is, that is on its way to either a new collapse or a great change. Its always the same, first comes the hunger, the passion, the rise. Then follows the state of decadence, and finally all turns to ashes. The gaming market of today has reached the final state of decadence. Publishers merges into gigantomanic structures full of economic-bullshit, where more people work in the administration and marketing, than in the development. They puke out junk-food-games to the masses in decreasing cycles. After that stopped working, they now try to stop the second hand market with Steam and Securom and DRM bullshit like this.

I for myself can see a retro-gaming trend too. Many younger gamers buy old classics instead of that new polished stuff of today. It isn't really big at the moment, and maybe never will. But this is a clear sign of the boredom games of today.
This should be seen as a big warning signal by the industrie, but i bet, they are just too stupid and greedy to see it.

Take 2, with approximately 13.000.000 sold copies of GTA IV, have immense losses last year? And this happened not the first time. But do they see whats wrong? No, for theys its always about the pirated copies.

Post by **3DO Experience** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:41 am

We have a bit of a "chicken and the egg" situation. Is this Retro Gaming phase do to the whole retro fad that's going on, or is the fad due to everything in the past 5+ years feeling like a cob-job piece of garbage?
I don't know about the UK but here in the US all of the old 80's & 90's things are coming back. However I have noticed one thing throughout, the used look. All of the new T-shirts with old designs look faded and worn, all clothing that doesn't have old characters with a new design are, and jeans that look worn... Maybe it's because the new and shiny look is too disconnective, maybe it's because things have gotten so bad they look for "happier times" even if they weren't even born during them, or maybe it's just a marketing toy created buy some company that had a butt-load of clothing from the 80's in a warehouse.

Sorry, I got off topic. Games nowadays feel cheaply made. Anything new, regardless of fresh ideas are so easy they fail to entertain. Easy comparison: Super Mario Bros. 3 vs. DOOM 3, their first times around. SMB3 took at least a month to beat not including finding all secretes and tricks ect. (no warp whistles) DOOM3, beat in a few days and found all there is to find.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:49 am

3DOKid wrote:2. Gaming isn't for everyone. (It's an important point so I'll make it twice)

It's for geeks. Geeks with delusions of grandeur. geeks who want to take part, safely, in their heroic fantasies. They want to shoot the bad guys, drive the faster car, save the Princess (yes even Nintendo fans), stop the Alien invasion, and journey to distant moon to sell drugs to aliens and ultimately quest with Goblins.

I disagree. Completely. I believe games are universal, like stories. Who doesn't love a good story? Likewise, who flat out hates playing a game?

Yes, VIDEO GAMES have historically been the domain of geeks, but why do they have to remain that way? A good game is a good game, regardless of whether it's played on a TV screen with a controller in your hands or on a board at the dining room table. There's no reason universally appealing game mechanics can't be done in a video game. Changing the format of how the game is presented doesn't change the mechanics that determine whether it's fun.

The success of companies like PopCap proves there are people who would normally never care about "core" games, but are open to playing a video game as long as the mechanics are engaging to them.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:04 am

Conveniently enough, I just stumbled on this article about a woman trying out computer games for the first time. She's initially excited because she usually enjoys other kinds of games, but when she tries computer games, she's terrible at them. The mechanics aren't accessible, the games are inflexible, and they all require a sort of mindset that comes from playing similar games a lot -- they require experience, basically. Heck, she even has a "core" gamer-type friend that just tells her to figure it all out on her own.

The article is from 1985. I don't think much has changed since then. If anything, games are probably even more complex and inaccessible.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/ ... 3/sizes/o/

Post by **3DO Experience** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:21 am

Great read that brings back memories. Thanks, and remember "The satisfaction of these games is the torture they give you."

UnholyTancred · Post by **UnholyTancred** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:47 am

More complex? I doubt that. I die in like the first random encounter in Might & Magic and Bard's Tale. When I was a kid I could breeze through Wolfenstein 3D and Blake Stone but nowadays I find it incredibly uncomfortable using the arrow keys and CTRL so I die often.

Folks let's just stop buying games period. We need another video game crash. We need to have all these shitty companies who pump out the same generic hogwash year after year go out of business. And then SEGA will come back and be our saviour or we'll be living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland Mad Max style because the economy is bad enough.

Post by **3DO Experience** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:13 am

Another crash sounds good. I have plenty of old games I have yet to finish/start on consoles long since gone. My Saturn & TG-16 are getting lots of play & my 3DO is begging to get into the action. The X-BOX² can wait.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:43 am

I hear ya 3DO Exp ... my list of unfinished games is almost staggering!

(but then again, show me a collector's whose isn't

)

Silanda · Post by **Silanda** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:11 pm

UnholyTancred wrote:Folks let's just stop buying games period. We need another video game crash. We need to have all these shitty companies who pump out the same generic hogwash year after year go out of business. And then SEGA will come back and be our saviour or we'll be living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland Mad Max style because the economy is bad enough.

Because another crash would really stimulate creativity wouldn't it? So many cookie cutter games are produced because of the exorbitant cost of modern game development. Publishers play it safe in order to minimise cost and maximise potential to turn a profit. Games cost orders of magnitude more to produce now than they did at the time of the 80's crash, and all another crash would do is destroy the industry and doom us to uncountable legions of puzzle and brain training games. A revitalised industry would not come from it as no one would dare risk investing enough money to create it.

Sega tried to be creative and produce interesting games above all else, look where it got them.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:24 pm

I think the Sega example is misleading ... poor management, not innovation, was their weakness.

Silanda · Post by **Silanda** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:32 pm

Trev wrote:I think the Sega example is misleading ... poor management, not innovation, was their weakness.

In terms of the Saturn era that is true, although it is also true that the Saturn flopped hard despite having a lot of quality games. They also had quite a few high budget bombs though, even some since they were taken over by Sammy. Sega Rally Revo and Outrun 2 and 2006 were all good games, and all sold like they were infected with the plauge, not to mention Shenmue which was fantastically expensive to create at the time.

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:53 am

3DOKid wrote:
2. Gaming isn't for everyone. (It's an important point so I'll make it twice)

It's for geeks. Geeks with delusions of grandeur. geeks who want to take part, safely, in their heroic fantasies. They want to shoot the bad guys, drive the faster car, save the Princess (yes even Nintendo fans), stop the Alien invasion, and journey to distant moon to sell drugs to aliens and ultimately quest with Goblins.

Sorry Kid I'm with Mobius on this one - gaming should be for everyone it needed to sell out to a degree in order to survive.You cant expect massive research and development for the entertainment of a selected few. I've never thought of consoles as purist devices anyways.For me that's what PC's are and what the arcades used to be.

We have a bit of a "chicken and the egg" situation. Is this Retro Gaming phase do to the whole retro fad that's going on, or is the fad due to everything in the past 5+ years feeling like a cob-job piece of garbage?

To answer that is Yes and Yes. I believe to a degree it is fad but one that will remain allbeit at a lesser level once the excitement is over. For me so much of what I liked in consoles was symbiotic with arcades - when they died so did the consoles.I for one am enjoying the fact that I can walk into a jeanswear shop and buy an Atari and a Donkey Kong T-Shirt and more importantly wear them without fear of condemnation (except from my wife who hates them)

Folks let's just stop buying games period. We need another video game crash. We need to have all these shitty companies who pump out the same generic hogwash year after year go out of business.

Agreed!

And then SEGA will come back and be our saviour

Will never happen

we'll be living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland Mad Max style because the economy is bad enough.

I already live there

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:16 pm

Mobius wrote:
3DOKid wrote:2. Gaming isn't for everyone. (It's an important point so I'll make it twice)

It's for geeks. Geeks with delusions of grandeur. geeks who want to take part, safely, in their heroic fantasies. They want to shoot the bad guys, drive the faster car, save the Princess (yes even Nintendo fans), stop the Alien invasion, and journey to distant moon to sell drugs to aliens and ultimately quest with Goblins.
I disagree. Completely. I believe games are universal, like stories. Who doesn't love a good story? Likewise, who flat out hates playing a game?

Yes, VIDEO GAMES have historically been the domain of geeks, but why do they have to remain that way? A good game is a good game, regardless of whether it's played on a TV screen with a controller in your hands or on a board at the dining room table. There's no reason universally appealing game mechanics can't be done in a video game. Changing the format of how the game is presented doesn't change the mechanics that determine whether it's fun.

The success of companies like PopCap proves there are people who would normally never care about "core" games, but are open to playing a video game as long as the mechanics are engaging to them.

Because the games have to be dumbed down. Gaming isn't about the technology or the coding anymore it's a version of politics. It's not what the game companies say or make or do, it's about how many people they suspect they can sell to. Which IMHO is a house built on weak foundations.

Today, depth and breadth mean nothing, it's merely how many people you attract. Which means games are driven by the marketing division, which means the passion goes out of the game. And that's precisely what we are seeing.

From Pong to Killzone 2 was a journey. The games industry seems to think it can start again by going back to pong. What it doesn't recognise is that's a fad industry, it's over stretching itself and it's cruising for a crash because it's pandering to fickle mainstream consumers.

Gaming is not for everyone. I don't knit, I don't do tapestry, I don't fish, I don't follow Cricket I don't follow Soccer. sure I could and I might even enjoy it but I don't and there is a reason for that, and there is a reason why other people don't play games. If the industry wastes it's time chasing after these people it will destroy itself. And no one will re-invest to save it.

A half way decent game costs $millions to make. If the industry crashes, who will invest that money to continue making games? Who will invest that money after Nintendo makes loses? After the billions SOny and MS have p**sed up against the wall who would dare to start again? Maybe a crash would be good. Maybe EA, Sony, MS and Nintendo will start pandering to the hardcore of game players. Who knows?

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:57 pm

I agree w/Mobius &Matt ... shocked I'm sure.

I'll say this though, the whole casual dumbed down period as you call it is but temporary. Like all fads it will taper off to a more reasonable level. In the meantime patience kid ... the hardcore games won't dissapear.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:01 pm

Trev wrote:I agree w/Mobius &Matt ... shocked I'm sure. I'll say this though, the whole casual dumbed down period as you call it is but temporary. Like all fads it will taper off to a more reasonable level. In the meantime patience kid ... the hardcore games won't dissapear.

It won't and they will and it will be just me, all on my own, and I'll track you guys down and say in no uncertain terms - I told you so.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:58 pm

You know where to find me ... I'll be playing the 'untangle the xmas lights' mini game in Wii Play 6

Lemmi · Post by **Lemmi** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:35 pm

Who cares?

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:00 pm

Lemmi wrote:Who cares?

me. for reasons I cannot explain. And now, thanks to your perky post, can't understand.

Post by **3DO Experience** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:51 pm

SEGA died for more than one reason and it took more than one system to kill them. We just need to beat the current industry down to where they are going to die and then let them crawl back up from the dirt with only good games to save them.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:03 am

Aside from Outrun 2006, what was Segas last good game?

(no sarcasm intended)

Silanda · Post by **Silanda** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:23 am

3DOKid wrote:Aside from Outrun 2006, what was Segas last good game?

(no sarcasm intended)

Ryu ga Gotoku (Yakuza) 3 is supposed to be rather good. Valkyria Chronicles was also good.