Games that could reach 3DO's limit

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Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by ildjarn » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:26 pm

It's a well-know thing that 3DO console (same as Atari Jaguar) comercially died before revealing its full potential. I wonder which games would show the border of 3DO's abilities? Of course, some level of downgrading taken into consideration (question is, how far we can go with sacrificies even if porting some game isn't unreal). There will be a time to test Atari Jaguar the same way but now we can focus on its rival :)

1. FPS:

I how how terrible 3DO Doom port was but the reason of its failure would lie in bad optimalization instead of console's weakness. So could 3DO handle with early full 3D shooters like Quake, Terminator: Future Shock / Skynet, Goldeneye 64, Jedi Knight or Turok? Or at least, with the most advanced 2.5D spritefull ones like Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior or Redneck Rampage?

Some downgraded port of DN3D could be done for Megadrive which is much weaker system than 3D)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9doqwl-U7jU

2. High-detailed 2D games

Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines, Abe's Exodus, Abe's Oddysee, Diablo, Fallout 1&2, Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero

Again, poor Megadrive could handle with Commandos that way (quite impressive btw) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uGNVWItzgg

3. RTS or similar

I'm sure that games like Tiberian Sun and newer are out of 3DO's range but what about such RTS like Red Alert (high res), Dune 2000, Dungeon Keeper, Starcraft or even Dark Colony?

4. 2D Fighting Games

Street Fighter 3 saga or Garou: MOTW are rather impossible but SF Alpha's (and the rest of CPS2 games generally), arcade-perfect Killer Instinct?

5. 3D Fighting Games

Untextured Virtua Fighter is the border? Or maybe first Toshinden, Tekken, Virtua Fighter Remix, FX Fighter Turbo, mega downgraded War Gods / Mortal Kombat 4?

6. Other:

Resident Evil, Mario 64, Crock: Legend of the Gobbos, Mario Kart 64, Chocobo Racing?

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Post by FrumpleOrz » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:40 pm

1. FPS:

I how how terrible 3DO Doom port was but the reason of its failure would lie in bad optimalization instead of console's weakness. So could 3DO handle with early full 3D shooters like Quake, Terminator: Future Shock / Skynet, Goldeneye 64, Jedi Knight or Turok? Or at least, with the most advanced 2.5D spritefull ones like Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior or Redneck Rampage?
I've been playing through PO'ed lately and that one seems to be pushing it a bit. I've actually run into a bit of slowdown at some points and there have been a lot of weird issues with the textures stretching. I don't see any possible way to get something like Goldeneye to run well on 3DO and keep it the same game. I'd imagine it'd be able to do Duke Nukem 3D fairly decently.
2. High-detailed 2D games

Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines, Abe's Exodus, Abe's Oddysee, Diablo, Fallout 1&2, Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero
The 3DO already does have some stuff like Flashback and Out of the World, which I'd think would fall into this category.
4. 2D Fighting Games

Street Fighter 3 saga or Garou: MOTW are rather impossible but SF Alpha's (and the rest of CPS2 games generally), arcade-perfect Killer Instinct?
If they could shove SFA onto a Super Nintendo cart, I'd imagine the 3DO could do it.
5. 3D Fighting Games

Untextured Virtua Fighter is the border? Or maybe first Toshinden, Tekken, Virtua Fighter Remix, FX Fighter Turbo, mega downgraded War Gods / Mortal Kombat 4?
Didn't Sega manage to shove a version of Virtua Fighter onto a 32X cart? If that's true, the 3DO could probably do that. The world would probably be a better place if War Gods had never been released though.
6. Other:

Resident Evil, Mario 64, Crock: Legend of the Gobbos, Mario Kart 64, Chocobo Racing?
Resident Evil? The 3DO's got Alone in the Dark and Dr Hauzer.

Also, Ildjarn? Like the sonic blur tape deck fell over black metal band? I haven't heard that name in a looooooong time.

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Post by Austin » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:51 pm

Nowadays I have come to realize, through playing Warp's Japan-only games, that the 3DO was probably a 2D powerhouse. Their titles have a lot of cool effects and run silky-smooth. Unfortunately, most developers focused on the 3D end of things so I don't think we ever got to see that potential fully met.

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Post by ildjarn » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:26 pm

FrumpleOrz wrote: The 3DO already does have some stuff like Flashback and Out of the World, which I'd think would fall into this category.
Yeah, genre is the same but both Abe's have faaaar more detailed 2D graphics.

FrumpleOrz wrote: If they could shove SFA onto a Super Nintendo cart, I'd imagine the 3DO could do it.
But SNES port is downgraded one... could 3DO handle with arcade perfect? And maybe I'm wrong and SF3 / Garou aren't impossible for 3DO after some sacrifices?

FrumpleOrz wrote: Didn't Sega manage to shove a version of Virtua Fighter onto a 32X cart?
Yes, this is very first home Virtua Fighter port, it lacked textures.


FrumpleOrz wrote: Resident Evil? The 3DO's got Alone in the Dark and Dr Hauzer.
But they're untextured, RE is a bigger challange to run.
FrumpleOrz wrote: I haven't heard that name in a looooooong time.
He should stay forgotten for the crappy music he used to play :twisted:

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Post by Austin » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:09 pm

ildjarn wrote:But SNES port is downgraded one... could 3DO handle with arcade perfect?
Quite possibly. Something you need to consider is that the 3DO was cut off early. It's doubtful we saw a game that pushed it to its limits, especially on the 2D side of things.
ildjarn wrote:
FrumpleOrz wrote:Didn't Sega manage to shove a version of Virtua Fighter onto a 32X cart?
Yes, this is very first home Virtua Fighter port, it lacked textures.
The original arcade version lacked textures as well (it only had a higher polygon count). I think the point is, if the 32X could handle a quality 3D fighter (textured or not), then the 3DO could have done the same, and with textures to boot.
ildjarn wrote:
FrumpleOrz wrote:Resident Evil? The 3DO's got Alone in the Dark and Dr Hauzer.
But they're untextured, RE is a bigger challange to run.
Doctor Hauzer is fully textured outside of the main character, and the backgrounds are fully three-dimensional, whereas both Resident Evil and Alone in the Dark use pre-rendered, two-dimensional backgrounds with sparse polygonal objects thrown about for interaction. Technically, I think Doctor Hauzer is doing more than Resident Evil is, although Resident Evil looks much nicer in the approach it took.

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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by Martin III » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:02 am

ildjarn wrote:1. FPS:

I how how terrible 3DO Doom port was but the reason of its failure would lie in bad optimization instead of console's weakness.
No need to make excuses for 3DO Doom; just take a look at Slayer. A relatively early game for the system (1994), yet it displays comparable graphics both in full screen and at a frame rate that is, if not impressive, at least undeniably playable. The 3DO's no 1st person powerhouse, but it could definitely pull off a solid version of Duke Nukem 3D.
ildjarn wrote:Resident Evil, Mario 64, Crock: Legend of the Gobbos
LOL, I see what you did there. :lol: In Croc's defense, though, it does have an awesome soundtrack. I don't think the 3DO could tackle that one; even the Saturn and PlayStation couldn't pull off Croc's 3D polygon-based platforming very well.

As far as pushing things on the 2D side, how about Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn)? Anyone think that'd be a good test for the 3DO? I'm sure it could actually do the FMV better (it's noticeably grainy in this game), but how about the core game?

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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by FrumpleOrz » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:48 am

But SNES port is downgraded one... could 3DO handle with arcade perfect? And maybe I'm wrong and SF3 / Garou aren't impossible for 3DO after some sacrifices?
I'm really not too familiar with arcade hardware or anything, so I can't say either way that Alpha would be tough, but it'd be a heckuva lot easier than SF3 or Garou. If the PS1 had issues with X-Men Children of the Atom, I could only imagine how much a 3DO port of the latter 2 would not run well or at the very least, be a hollow shell of the game it's attempting to be.
FrumpleOrz wrote:

Resident Evil? The 3DO's got Alone in the Dark and Dr Hauzer.


But they're untextured, RE is a bigger challange to run.
I still think a version of Resident Evil could be run on 3DO. It might not look as pretty, but towards the end there, some 3DO games started looking pretty good. I was actually pretty surprised at how good the opening video of Bladeforce looks. It's pretty fantastic stuff. It looked better than a lot of the first generation PS1 games.


He should stay forgotten for the crappy music he used to play
What?! But his music is so KVLT NECRO AND TRVE. Oh black metal. The most pretentious of all metal. I used to love that stuff too. I was the dude walking around high school in my Burzum and Mayhem shirts, with pentagrams and inverted crosses covering everything. I remember tricking myself into thinking I liked Ildjarn but no. That stuff was pretty awful. I'm surprised at how well some of those second-wave guys still sound though. I listen to Anthem at the Welkin at Dusk and Det Som Engang Var quite often still.

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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by Austin » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:26 am

Martin III wrote:As far as pushing things on the 2D side, how about Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn)? Anyone think that'd be a good test for the 3DO? I'm sure it could actually do the FMV better (it's noticeably grainy in this game), but how about the core game?
Magic Knight Rayearth would be a cakewalk. There's barely anything happening in that game. Originally it was a pretty early Japanese release for the Saturn (mid '95 according to Wikipedia). A similar looking game, Albert Odyssey, was originally a SNES game. Neither title is really a showcase of 2D system power outside of some really clean, colorful visuals. They're not bad looking by any means, but again, there's just not a lot going on in them.

The 3DO actually did a game that looks very similar to both. Some 2D, top-down, Japan-only role playing game. 3DOkid will know the name of it. I think it's on his blog as well. :)

Something like the Saturn's Dragon Force would be an interesting test for the 3DO. Later in the game there are 200-ish sprites on the screen at once, all scaling and animating at once. That's just counting characters and not projectiles, too. I don't recall how much slowdown there is, but it's pretty impressive. Of course, in a theoretical scenario, someone like the guys at Warp would have to program such an example, as they seemed to be the only ones that could make a 2D-based game run at 60 frames a second, haha. ;)
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Post by 3DO Experience » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:31 am

You also have to take into consideration that people weren't allowed to write directly for it's hardware. So it could do more than what we've seen.
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Post by FrumpleOrz » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:37 am

3DO Experience wrote:You also have to take into consideration that people weren't allowed to write directly for it's hardware. So it could do more than what we've seen.
What do you mean by this? I'm unfamiliar with this.

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Post by Austin » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:39 am

In short, developers had to adhere to limitations and standards imposed by 3DO in order to ensure that the games they developed would be compatible on every 3DO unit. I think that's how it went, anyway.
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Post by Trev » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:41 am

Yeah, 3DO had its own OS.
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Post by FrumpleOrz » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:38 am

In short, developers had to adhere to limitations and standards imposed by 3DO in order to ensure that the games they developed would be compatible on every 3DO unit. I think that's how it went, anyway.
Huh! Ya learn something new every day, I guess. It makes sense, I guess. It's probably the only way to make sure that 3DO consoles wouldn't run into the same compatibility issues as PCs, huh?

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Post by Austin » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:12 am

Basically! :)

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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by ildjarn » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:52 pm

Martin III wrote:
As far as pushing things on the 2D side, how about Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn)? Anyone think that'd be a good test for the 3DO? I'm sure it could actually do the FMV better (it's noticeably grainy in this game), but how about the core game?
MKR is not a big deal, propably it could be done on SNES (without cutscenes ofkoz), but mentioning Sega Saturn reminded me other 2D game - Guardian Heroes! It'd be quite challenging port, BTW I wonder why sprites in this game were so pixelized? It's not Saturn's fault. Would 3DO handle wih Guardian Heroes, especially with upgraded, high-res sprites?

Some posters above have pointed that the first person shooter limit of 3DO could at DN3D. On the atariage.com forum there's a "Quake on Jaguar" thread where most of user find such port possible for Jag (ofkoz after some downgrade) so is 3DO inferior comparing to Jaguar?

Forgive me such theoretical-to-the-bone topic but it's fascinating to me wondering about each system's limit. People say "blah, forget old game system, wait to wach abilities of Playstation8 / XBOX 1440 / WII 57" but i don't care, we're in such point when almost all new games look the same, so is bigger pleasure for to me to watch/imagine how far old systems can be pushed. I admire homebrew scenes, bootlegers creating such gems as Resident Evil and Donkey Kong Country for NES, Doom for ZX Spectrum, Commandos for Megadrive and so on, they're last remains of old-video-game-vibe if you know what i mean :)

FrumpleOrz wrote: I'm surprised at how well some of those second-wave guys still sound though. I listen to Anthem at the Welkin at Dusk and Det Som Engang Var quite often still.
Yeap, for me Norway is about Burzum, Forgotten Woods, Joyless, Satyricon, Darkthorne, Mayhem, Ved Buens Ende, Dodheimsgard, Cadaver... comparing to them Ildjarn is just poor noise-like punk rocker :)

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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by ArfredHitchcacku » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:41 pm

For someone who isn't an expert on the 3DO's hardware such as myself, you'd really have to use the existing games and how well they run as evidence. Doom doesn't prove anything because the graphics in Killing Time are at least as good as Doom's and that game runs very, very well. The system could handle nice polygon, textured worlds as well as evidenced by games like Lucienn'es Quest and Off-World Interceptor. How well Duke Nukem 3D would run is entirely dependant on how well it was ported. Chances are, it would be very, very shoddy. As far as I know the Saturn was at least as powerful if not more than the 3DO and that port could have undoubtedly been much better than it was, and hell, that was an engine almost entirely made for the Saturn. I can't imagine any developer making Duke Nukem 3D from the very ground up for a not very successful system in the first place, but if they did I imagine a decent running game.

Quake, being a game with really no cardboard cutouts, is a completely different animal. Then again, it ran decently on the Saturn so again, if it was made for the ground up with heavy compromises it could probably be playable, a speed on par if not a little better than Doom. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think of a 3DO game that's nothing but full 3D Polygons, with huge, wide open individial levels.

What matters in the end is that if the 3DO was given a decent price people would be far more likely to buy it due to the hardware really being powerful at the time of its release compared to the SNES and Genesis. It would be interesting to see how the Playstation, Saturn and N64 would do had the 3DO been successful given the very similar hardware. (at least for the former two.)
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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by Martin III » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:50 am

Austin wrote:
Martin III wrote:As far as pushing things on the 2D side, how about Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn)? Anyone think that'd be a good test for the 3DO? I'm sure it could actually do the FMV better (it's noticeably grainy in this game), but how about the core game?
Magic Knight Rayearth would be a cakewalk. There's barely anything happening in that game. Originally it was a pretty early Japanese release for the Saturn (mid '95 according to Wikipedia). A similar looking game, Albert Odyssey, was originally a SNES game. Neither title is really a showcase of 2D system power outside of some really clean, colorful visuals. They're not bad looking by any means, but again, there's just not a lot going on in them.
While Albert Odyssey uses a similar graphical style to Magic Knight Rayearth, I wouldn't say it's at all comparable in terms of technical output. In Magic Knight Rayearth, NPCs walk around, combat is live action, towns and dungeons often have tiered platforms, and to my eyes at least, the color palette is much more varied. And while I don't look for such things myself, I'm told MKR has some unusual effects for its time as far as shadows and such.

Also, while Albert Odyssey was originally being developed for the SNES, the finalized version is firmly beyond the SNES's capabilities. For starters, the soundtrack is definitely not cartridge-quality.

Anyway. How about Megaman X4, then?

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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by Trev » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:00 am

Martin III wrote: Anyway. How about Megaman X4, then?
Well, we did almost get X3.
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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by Austin » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:35 am

Martin III wrote:While Albert Odyssey uses a similar graphical style to Magic Knight Rayearth, I wouldn't say it's at all comparable in terms of technical output.
You're right. Albert Odyssey actually has a lot more going on than in Magic Knight Rayearth. Bad example. :lol:
Martin III wrote:In Magic Knight Rayearth, NPCs walk around, combat is live action, towns and dungeons often have tiered platforms, and to my eyes at least
It's not really anything too different from what is found in SNES action-adventures or role playing games, like Secret of Mana, or Zelda: Link to the Past.
Martin III wrote:And while I don't look for such things myself, I'm told MKR has some unusual effects for its time as far as shadows and such.
Do those effects take more to process though? Is it harder on the system (i.e., does it come at a severe performance cost)? That's what needs to be looked at in that case.
Martin III wrote:For starters, the soundtrack is definitely not cartridge-quality.
Well, yeah. :razz:

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Post by JohnnyDude » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:49 am

Doom and Duke Nukem 3D used "raytracing" engines, which don't take advantage of 3DO's graphics processing in the native way and are slower. This is also why they avoid the weird blobby warpy textures. These days those games have been open sourced and ported to use actual polygons, and this approach may have been faster on 3DO (though, with the warpy texture problems).

It may help to also know that 3DO is primarily a 320x240 machine. It claimed to support 640x480, but only does this in a weird, quazi, not-really kind of way. Each pixel can be "weighted" to have one corner out of the 2x2 square be brighter, but of the same color. So, primarily 320x240 unless the developers really got snazzy for a small benefit, and any games ported to/from 3DO were not likely to go through this work. So, an "HD" variety of games is unlikely.

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Post by bonefish » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:40 pm

I think some people overestimate the graphical abilities of the 3do. It was a beast at debut. But by the time it bowed out, the launch games for PS (Battle Arena Toshinden, Ridge Racer) and Saturn (Panzer Dragoon, Virtua Fighter) were beyond 3do. No doubt though that the 3do could push some 2d and video though, just that the 3d aspect really evolved after it launched. Everyone remembers the stories of how the 3d engine on the Saturn was shoehorned in. I remember Panasonic ads saying it best, just slightly ahead of its time. But I'm sure there was a little more graphic sauce in the tank.

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Post by UK3DOFAN » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:51 pm

While reversely i feel people underestimate the 3D capabilities of the 3DO.

All games mentioned in this thread could of easily been done quite well on the 3DO, some not so well if released during its heyday but definately if the console survived longer and talented programmers started to push the 3DO to its limits, i dont think we ever saw what the 3DO was REALLY capable of and that saddens me very much.

Goldeneye is blurry and low res so the 3DO could of done that in the hands of a talented programmer if the console had lasted much longer.

Only game i can think of on the top of my head that the 3DO would of struggled with being anywhere as good as is Virtua Fighter 2 on the Saturn.

Even the PS1 and N64 couldnt of done it as well as the saturn, it ran in a hi res mode and 60fps, the saturns excellent 2d graphic chips scaled the backgrounds in and out.

Quake could of been almost as good as the excellent saturn port but a bit slower, magic carpet was a perfect game to show off the 3DO's capabilities but sadly never arrived but was mentioned in magazines of the time as coming out for the 3DO.
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Post by bonefish » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:44 pm

I'm not so sure about the 3d rendering on the 3do. I admire your optimistic view on the 3do and if it could've done more in regards to 3d. When i go down the list of specs I see a system built to push pixels and not polys. The hardware polygon count figures don't appear in official documents, maybe because they rendered the 3d in software. Oh well, maybe one day some homebrew will come along that pushes the 3do.

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Post by CJZEPP » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:39 pm

How about half-life 1 for 3DO?
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Post by BryWI » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:51 pm

Heavily modified quake engine...? Alot of the engine features would have to be likely stripped out giving the game a different look environment-wise... Not sure really.

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Post by CJZEPP » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:46 pm

Are there any home brew games that reach the 3dos limit?
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Post by Austin » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:32 pm

There are very few homebrew games for the 3DO, period. So, no.

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Re:

Post by UK3DOFAN » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:11 pm

bonefish wrote:I'm not so sure about the 3d rendering on the 3do. I admire your optimistic view on the 3do and if it could've done more in regards to 3d. When i go down the list of specs I see a system built to push pixels and not polys. The hardware polygon count figures don't appear in official documents, maybe because they rendered the 3d in software. Oh well, maybe one day some homebrew will come along that pushes the 3do.
I think i was being way too optimistic saying the 3DO could of done justice to Goldeneye, would have to be scaled back so much it wouldn't be Goldeneye anymore. :lol:
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Re:

Post by a31chris » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:51 am

bonefish wrote:I think some people overestimate the graphical abilities of the 3do. It was a beast at debut. But by the time it bowed out, the launch games for PS (Battle Arena Toshinden, Ridge Racer) and Saturn (Panzer Dragoon, Virtua Fighter) were beyond 3do. No doubt though that the 3do could push some 2d and video though, just that the 3d aspect really evolved after it launched. Everyone remembers the stories of how the 3d engine on the Saturn was shoehorned in. I remember Panasonic ads saying it best, just slightly ahead of its time. But I'm sure there was a little more graphic sauce in the tank.
I don't like the words 'impossible' or 'beyond' etc. If I ever run a company such as Atari/3do were back in the day I would want everyone to put aside their prejudices and say 'ok let's see what we can do.' when a subject is brought up. I think people who were hung up on the beyond or impossible mindset would probably be grounds for termination in my company.

We have all seen what that mindset can do. Most notably recently with Atari. After 20 years their mindset of 'it's impossible' had been disproven 20 years earlier. They still knew nothing about it. They never even looked to see what was possible so blinded by what they thought was impossible.

They never even tried. This is inexcusable.

Even today when it's pointed out to them, none of them go 'well whoops, something to learn from'. They seem rather stoic about it.
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Re: Games that could reach 3DO's limit

Post by a31chris » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:57 am

Another recent example is DMLs work on the Falcon. No one thought it would be possible him doing what he's done so far.

But he tried. And got farther than anyone expected.
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