Does Primal Rage Suck?

[Austin]

There I fixed the photos show they would show up. As far as the "market value" that would be up to what someone would be willing to give you. They are pretty bad games and not necessarily prototypes. Those generally have version numbers so you most likely just have press review copies. If that's the case they should play on a normal 3DO console. Other members are more knowledgeable than I on these, but for $1.00 each you can't go wrong right?

BC Racers is pretty bad, and Primal Rage is pretty awesome.

There, I fixed that for you.

[3DOKid]

BC Racers is pretty bad, and Primal Rage is pretty awesome.

There, I fixed that for you.

Ban Request.

[3DO Experience]

Primal Rage is pretty awesome.

You are horribly out numbered in that opinion.

[Austin]

I had a feeling that was coming.

[Austin]

It seems like Primal Rage is to the 3DO what Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story is to the Jaguar: crummy game, but we can take some solace in the fact that it's (one of) the best version(s) of a crummy game.

Hardly. I think some are forgetting that Primal Rage was one of the most popular arcade games in the '94 - '95 timeframe (hence it being converted to just about every system known to man at the time). Whether one doesn't like it is a personal opinion, obviously, but it shouldn't be seen as a universally "crummy" game considering its origins. It was cutting edge at the time and was one of the first fighting games to really feature air juggles (that would become standard thereafter). The arcade version in particular is a polished product, and the character selection, while small, is varied. It's far from the level of Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story (which is a mediocre game with very little to actually do in it), and like other good arcade fighters of the era (Killer Instinct, Street Fighter II, and to an extent, Mortal Kombat 3), Primal Rage has a flexible fighting system that allows for intuitive combos for higher level players.

I recommend checking out this combo exhibition video for Primal Rage. You probably still won't like the game, which is fine, but it should give you an idea of what can be done in the game from a technical standpoint. The flexibility (and thus, depth) of a fighting game is what separates good fighting games (Street Fighter, Killer Instinct, etc.) from the mediocre or bad ones (Kasumi Ninja, Ultra Vortek, etc.). Primal Rage has the depth, but if you don't play many fighting games, you are not going to see that. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCbUhofJ ... e=youtu.be

[goldenband]

I don't know if this affected any of the ports, but: aren't all the emulation compilations of Primal Rage completely screwed up and gutted because of some obscure copy protection issue that got overlooked? If so, then Midway Arcade Treasures 2, etc. don't fully represent the quality of the original.

(Not sure about MAME, but I think that has or had the same issue.)

[Austin]

I don't know if this affected any of the ports, but: aren't all the emulation compilations of Primal Rage completely screwed up and gutted because of some obscure copy protection issue that got overlooked? If so, then Midway Arcade Treasures 2, etc. don't fully represent the quality of the original.

(Not sure about MAME, but I think that has or had the same issue.)

I have heard about that, but I'm not 100% certain what the effect the copy protection has on the MAT2 version. I know the XBOX's emulated version seems pretty authentic.

I just read this via Wikipedia:

The Primal Rage design team implemented an unusual and largely unknown security method into the arcade machine's coding that prevented the full features of the game from becoming active. Since the original programming team has since moved on to other things; some of the programmers even departed the electronic entertainment business altogether, so they could not be reached for questioning regarding the game's security lock-outs. Those who have been contacted expressed no interest in unlocking the ROM BIOS for freeware distribution or security corrections. For these reasons no perfect emulation of the original arcade game exists.

In the absence of these security protections, blood would be "censored" in that it would be colored a yellowish color with a brown shading. Also, fatalities could not be performed, and many special moves were not available. Another emulation problem was the player could no longer chain attacks which greatly decreased the chance of performing a combo.

These issues even affect Midway Arcade Treasures 2 (Classics), which would supposedly feature an arcade perfect rendition of the game, but provided a censored and incomplete version instead.

I will have to load of my MAT2 for XBOX this weekend at see what they refer to. I don't remember blood, fatalities, or intros/endings being affected. On that note, I don't know what else might be missing as a result of the security protection.

[3DO Experience]

There, since we/I derailed the topic so fast I gave this it's own topic. Now Austin can shut us up once and for all.

[Austin]

LOL! I was not expecting to wake up to this, haha.

[Martin III]

It seems like Primal Rage is to the 3DO what Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story is to the Jaguar: crummy game, but we can take some solace in the fact that it's (one of) the best version(s) of a crummy game.

Hardly. I think some are forgetting that Primal Rage was one of the most popular arcade games in the '94 - '95 timeframe (hence it being converted to just about every system known to man at the time). Whether one doesn't like it is a personal opinion, obviously, but it shouldn't be seen as a universally "crummy" game considering its origins. It was cutting edge at the time and was one of the first fighting games to really feature air juggles (that would become standard thereafter). The arcade version in particular is a polished product, and the character selection, while small, is varied. It's far from the level of Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story (which is a mediocre game with very little to actually do in it), and like other good arcade fighters of the era (Killer Instinct, Street Fighter II, and to an extent, Mortal Kombat 3), Primal Rage has a flexible fighting system that allows for intuitive combos for higher level players.

I recommend checking out this combo exhibition video for Primal Rage. You probably still won't like the game, which is fine, but it should give you an idea of what can be done in the game from a technical standpoint. The flexibility (and thus, depth) of a fighting game is what separates good fighting games (Street Fighter, Killer Instinct, etc.) from the mediocre or bad ones (Kasumi Ninja, Ultra Vortek, etc.). Primal Rage has the depth, but if you don't play many fighting games, you are not going to see that. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCbUhofJ ... e=youtu.be

Firstly, no need to take my opinions so seriously. I was just making an offhand comment on a game that I haven't spent all that much time with. If you enjoy Primal Rage, then I'm sincerely happy for you. Second, don't assume that I've forgotten Primal Rage's arcade days. Indeed, my chief memory of the game is playing it at the arcade back in '94 and thinking, "Wow, this looked great, but it's actually terrible." In recent years I've taken some intellectual amusement in reading up on the various console ports of the game, but naturally I haven't gone to the trouble of acquiring and playing any of them. ...Which kind of goes back to point one, that my somewhat uneducated opinion of the game should be no threat to your feelings toward it.

[NeoGeoNinja]

Surprise, surprise... as a big NeoGeo/SNK and Capcom fighter fan, I have mixed feelings towards Primal Rage.

IMO, it's not a good fighting game, but it's certainly not bad either. It's average really, given a high profile in it's time thanks to it being unique in terms of concept, animation technique and being developed by Midway - massively famous for Mortal Kombat at that time.

An Arcade Perfect copy would have been better than anything available on the Jaguar at the time, however, would have still fallen foul of the excellent port of SSF2X and Samurai Shodown on 3DO. As it stands though, both the 3DO and Jag ports were pretty dumb, so it 'blends in' just fine with the Jaguar fighter offerings (KNinja & UVortek) and the intermediate offerings on 3DO too (WOTWarrior etc).

As Austin has said, like some of the (as he puts it) good fighters of their time, Primal Rage also made an effort to capitalise on the juggle and combo systems prominent in more ambitious fighters - like SSF2X, SS2, KOF94 for example.

Midway fighters could never technically compete with the likes of what Capcom and SNK were outputting at the time, as they were ahead of the curve in many ways. Healthy competition does that between rival companies. However, Midway had a different thing altogether really with their titles, which were more about the thrills and spills of pure tongue in cheek entertainment instead of being overly technical fighting games. As much as the likes of MK, MK2 and Primal Rage seemed to be all about the outset of gore and violence, I think these more obvious factors overshadowed the fact that Midway didn't take themselves or these factors that seriously themselves. They were amused by it all. They weren't exactly competing but setting their own trends in popular genres at the time; 2D fighters in this instance.

Whilst Primal Rage and the MK's had a high profile in the arcades at the time, it was more about the pure spectacle as opposed to the technical prowess, gameplay wise. Obscenely, you still get the odd person who champions the likes of MK1 being a 'better' game than SFII - even today, to which I say, stick to the Prozac... because, quite obviously, something isn't firing quite as well as it should be.

Ultimately, Midway fighting games are quite simply fun, but ultimately, usually quite average; peaking with the likes of MK2 and MK3 series (at the time).

Certainly better than Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story, which isn't a 'true' 2D fighter to begin with. It's quite unique tbh and not really in competition with 2D fighter sin the traditional sense... unlike Rise of the Robots, for example

[Austin]

Thanks for the respectable response, NGN. I think you understand where I was going with my earlier post.

You really nailed it with your analysis of the Midway/Atari Games fighters. They were simply fun to play, but were often shallow. That's not to say there was no depth at all (for instance, the juggles in MK II), but the games had a tendency to be much more rigid and limited compared to Japanese offerings. A good way to put it is Midway fighters were usually a matter of style over substance. That's not necessarily a bad thing of course, but for those interested in learning fighting games inside and out, Japanese developed ones tend to offer far more satisfying experiences in that regard and they also end up being far better competition/tournament games.

What I appreciate about Primal Rage is that it made a greater attempt than some of the other American-developed fighters to bridge that gap between style and substance. On the style end you've got the polished visuals with slick animation, fatalities and goofy easter eggs (human volleyball, anyone?). On the substance end, you've got characters that are varied (even if they don't look so initially) with larger move sets than what you found in Mortal Kombat, and there's a flexible combo system that allows for creativity and truly mixing up your strings. It even has command throws and variable jumping, elements taken from some of the SNK fighters of the era.

[3DOKid]

I agree with what you said. Primal Rage has a lot going for it. Nice big colourful sprites, animated backgrounds, it looks great. Sounds great too. But it's just not tight enough. It would have benefitted from another few months of play testing. Just to sync up the whole experience of punching and kicking. I personally don't think dinosaurs make great fighting characters either. They're large and heavy, and look a bit odd leaping about like Ryu and Ken, and where Chun Li's spinning bird kick connects perfectly, stumpy dino legs don't quite cut it.

I think Midway had a knack for average. San Francisco Rush suffered the same. They always manage to grasp mediocrity from the jaws of greatness.

Surprise, surprise... as a big NeoGeo/SNK and Capcom fighter fan, I have mixed feelings towards Primal Rage.

IMO, it's not a good fighting game, but it's certainly not bad either. It's average really, given a high profile in it's time thanks to it being unique in terms of concept, animation technique and being developed by Midway - massively famous for Mortal Kombat at that time.

An Arcade Perfect copy would have been better than anything available on the Jaguar at the time, however, would have still fallen foul of the excellent port of SSF2X and Samurai Shodown on 3DO. As it stands though, both the 3DO and Jag ports were pretty dumb, so it 'blends in' just fine with the Jaguar fighter offerings (KNinja & UVortek) and the intermediate offerings on 3DO too (WOTWarrior etc).

As Austin has said, like some of the (as he puts it) good fighters of their time, Primal Rage also made an effort to capitalise on the juggle and combo systems prominent in more ambitious fighters - like SSF2X, SS2, KOF94 for example.

Midway fighters could never technically compete with the likes of what Capcom and SNK were outputting at the time, as they were ahead of the curve in many ways. Healthy competition does that between rival companies. However, Midway had a different thing altogether really with their titles, which were more about the thrills and spills of pure tongue in cheek entertainment instead of being overly technical fighting games. As much as the likes of MK, MK2 and Primal Rage seemed to be all about the outset of gore and violence, I think these more obvious factors overshadowed the fact that Midway didn't take themselves or these factors that seriously themselves. They were amused by it all. They weren't exactly competing but setting their own trends in popular genres at the time; 2D fighters in this instance.

Whilst Primal Rage and the MK's had a high profile in the arcades at the time, it was more about the pure spectacle as opposed to the technical prowess, gameplay wise. Obscenely, you still get the odd person who champions the likes of MK1 being a 'better' game than SFII - even today, to which I say, stick to the Prozac... because, quite obviously, something isn't firing quite as well as it should be.

Ultimately, Midway fighting games are quite simply fun, but ultimately, usually quite average; peaking with the likes of MK2 and MK3 series (at the time).

Certainly better than Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story, which isn't a 'true' 2D fighter to begin with. It's quite unique tbh and not really in competition with 2D fighter sin the traditional sense... unlike Rise of the Robots, for example

[T2KFreeker]

Primal Rage does not Suck. These days it's obviously dated, but the game was really good for it's time. However, I keep seeing all this hatred for Ultra Vortek also, and it doesn't suck either.UV is easily the best Jaguar Fighter and plays rather well considering other train wrecks on the system like Kasumi Ninja and Fight for Life. Anyway, back to Primal Rage, the thing that made me so shocked at the time on the PR port to the 3DO is that it outshines the Jaguar version so much, but PR being an Atari game should have been embarrassing for Atari. Again, I am not going to say that PR is the greatest fighter ever made, but it was still a pretty cool game for it's time. Oh, and for the record, Mortal Kombat 3 was horrible. It turned into a dial it in Button Mashers paradise after MKII, which was an outstanding game. In that respect, Primal Rage was at least more original than MK3.

[Trev]

I'm with Austin (and others) Primal Rage is good, and the 3DO port is a fine conversion.

[sneth]

It was a great game in the right arcades. You had to learn the fighting system.
Lots of people jumped into it and tried to play it like SF2. You can do that, but you miss out on some of the depth.
It's a nice cross of SF2 and Mortal combat. There are some nasty combo's when you get to it.
I play this one on my Jaguar, but the 3DO version looks the same. I just haven't spent much time on it.

[a31chris]

It seems that the 3do version and the Jag version are very very similar. That being said they both seem to be quick rush jobs with very little care taken with them. There is little reason IMO why both versions on the Jag and 3DO cannot be as good as the PSX/Saturn versions.

As for PR blending in just fine with other fighting games on the Jag like Kasumi Ninja etc. I disagree. Despite it being a rush job I think its one of the best put together fighting games on the jaguar with a relatively extensive combo system etc.

[Austin]

It seems that the 3do version and the Jag version are very very similar. That being said they both seem to be quick rush jobs with very little care taken with them. There is little reason IMO why both versions on the Jag and 3DO cannot be as good as the PSX/Saturn versions.

I wouldn't call the 3DO version a rush job. It has small character sprites, yes, but it still animates well, includes the original arcade introduction, endings, etc. It's still Primal Rage.. with small sprites. With one of the third-party four-face-button controllers, it's a relatively faithful conversion, all things considered. The Jag version is too, but it does have slightly worse animation and if I recall, slightly longer load times, so I guess you could say that one was "rushed", if that's the right term to use. But still, it's a solid version as well, provided you have a Pro Controller. Far better than the Genesis, 32X or SNES versions.

Could both platforms have done a flawless conversion? I don't know.. My guess is maybe not, considering both the Saturn and PSX versions were both lacking. The Saturn version's animation wasn't perfect, but it was by far the closest to the arcade in that area. The PSX version had large sprites too, but the animation is choppy. Funny enough, the 3DO version has smoother animation than the PSX version in some areas. Maybe they realized the constraints they were dealing with, and went for smaller sprites that animated better, versus larger ones that animated worse (like in the PSX version). Or maybe you are correct--they were rushed. Or perhaps all of the versions were pushed out the door quickly, haha (The PSX version especially, a very early longbox release, for instance. Makes you wonder how long they actually worked on it.).

[a31chris]

Maybe they realized the constraints they were dealing with, and went for smaller sprites that animated better, versus larger ones that animated worse (like in the PSX version). Or maybe you are correct--they were rushed. Or perhaps all of the versions were pushed out the door quickly, haha (The PSX version especially, a very early longbox release, for instance. Makes you wonder how long they actually worked on it.).

To me it does appear to be rushed. Here's why:

The backgrounds dont even line up to the screen on a lot of the stages.

The sound is not synched in many ways.

Some of the combos do not work.

[Austin]

I am not familiar with any of the issues you stated above. Can you specify particular instances where this is the case?

[Trev]

I am not familiar with any of the issues you stated above. Can you specify particular instances where this is the case?

Same here. I've always heard the 3DO port reported on favorably when compared to the other 32 bit versions. I don't recall experiencing any of those issues first hand.

[Austin]

The backgrounds dont even line up to the screen on a lot of the stages.

The sound is not synched in many ways.

Some of the combos do not work.

I decided to load up the 3DO version of Primal Rage last night to see how it really holds up (versus what my memory of three years ago from the last time I played it was telling me).

The first two quirks you mentioned above I did not notice. The backgrounds are a bit bare, but I didn't see anything "not lining up", per-se.

The sound sync issues, no problems there either.

The combos complaint, I think I am seeing that now. Chaos is the character I play as the most, and I have a good 6 to 8 hit combo I like to do, but I could only get the first four hits off in all the times I tried it. I will have to play it more this weekend and experiment with it further (I may do a let's play on it as well).

Part of my above issue may have been partially caused by my next big issue (that I don't really recall there being), and that's the framerate. It's choppy for the most part and makes everything seem to move faster than it's supposed to. It's that typical-of-the-3DO choppy nature. It's not an unplayable sort of choppy, but it gives the game a really rough look to it in motion, unlike the silky-smooth motion of Super Street Fighter II Turbo.

I guess maybe the 3DO version does suck a bit, now that I'm looking at it without the rose-tinted glasses on. It's still playable, but I don't think it really does the arcade original justice enough.

Oh, and the FMV cutscenes.. Bwahaha.. so terrible. My recommendation: Turn those off in the options menu, then you will get the cool original arcade intro (as it should be!).

[a31chris]

Am sorry Austin. I was referring to the Jaguar version. I have never played the 3do version. Only watched it on youtube.

[Austin]

Am sorry Austin. I was referring to the Jaguar version. I have never played the 3do version. Only watched it on youtube.

Ah, okay. All I have to refer to with the Jag version is YouTube videos as well, and that's not always the best means of judgment since half the frames are cut out there. It's been over a decade since I owned and played it personally.