Peace with Atarians?

All general 3DO chat here please.

Moderators: 3DO Experience, Devin, Bas, 3DOKid

Post Reply
User avatar
3DOKid
3DO ZONE ADMIN
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:21 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Contact:

Peace with Atarians?

Post by 3DOKid » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:28 am

Even on a farty little forum like ours, we aren't without high drama. Yet it is insignificant compared with the drama surrounding Jaguar forums. Why is this?

User avatar
NeoGeoNinja
3DO ZERO USER
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by NeoGeoNinja » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:45 pm

3DOKid wrote:Even on a farty little forum like ours, we aren't without high drama. Yet it is insignificant compared with the drama surrounding Jaguar forums. Why is this?
Simply because, the Atari jaguar still has a VERY active homebrew and development community, outputting new hardware and software for the Jaguar all the time.

The arguments are near always related to new games releases, hardware, prices, price flipping/jacking and criticisms from those not involved bruising the ego and enthusiasm of those bold enough to bother getting involved.

If the 3DO had a similar level of interest and activity concerning new hardware and software being developed for it, near annually (for example there's nearly always a new Rotary controller or game of some description on the horizon re: Jaguar) then I think, potentially, the 3DO community would be bigger and more drama ridden.

Which begs the question (from a simple gamers perspective, like mine), what is the deal concerning the 3DO and homebrew projects etc?

From memory, I think Battlesphere (& Gold) were the first real homebrew titles (of a very professional standard!) to get the Jaguar Drama Ball well and truly rolling...

User avatar
NeoGeoNinja
3DO ZERO USER
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by NeoGeoNinja » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:56 pm

Something else I forgot to mention...

As a long-term member of the recently deceased Jaguar-Sector 2 forums, the Jaguar appears to be the only console I have come across where PPL are MORE interested in the possibilities of programming and exploration of the Jaguar hardware itself, more than the commercial games line up themselves.

Most of the discussion over there was heavily tied in with running complied code and whatnot on the Jaguar and how to code objects and routines successfully running into the consoles hardware.

Because of the well known (at least, among Jaguar enthusiasts?) drawbacks of the Jaguars own hardware configurations, many are drawn to the challenge that the console offers and, it's almost as if personal glory, satisfaction and self-perceived computer engineering acclaim could possibly be had from a full understanding and, even better, fully running independent projects/games born from a great realised understanding of the Jaguar, outside of its commercial lifespan.

It's almost as if the Jaguar represent the paradigm of insurmountable computing challenge 101, and that attracts many oncomers - gamers or not.

Presumably, the Jaguar makes a very interest home computing case study all round...

User avatar
3DOKid
3DO ZONE ADMIN
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:21 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Contact:

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by 3DOKid » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:02 pm

That kind of makes sense.

What advise would you offer a Jaguar Forum admin?

User avatar
a31chris
Jaguar MOD
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:09 am

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by a31chris » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:23 am

I would have to agree with NeoGeoNinja. That is in my experience the best explanation.
What came after the Jaguar was the PS1 which for all it's greatness, ushered in corporate development and with it the bleached, repetitive, bland titles which for the most part we're still playing today. - David Wightman

User avatar
3DOKid
3DO ZONE ADMIN
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:21 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Contact:

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by 3DOKid » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:51 pm

Okay. So, in simple terms, we want developers, we don't want belly aching about price or people trying to scam other people?

User avatar
NeoGeoNinja
3DO ZERO USER
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by NeoGeoNinja » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:48 pm

3DOKid wrote:Okay. So, in simple terms, we want developers, we don't want belly aching about price or people trying to scam other people?
Okay, so I'm presuming you're approaching this as a purely hypothetical situation (I could be wrong) - what if YOU were to launch a new Jaguar forum to fill the void left by Jaguar Sector II?

So, the main truth of the matter, from what I can ascertain, is that JS-II always had 'competition' from Atari Age anyway. If anything, JS-II (and please, I mean no disrespect) was a lot like this place: once really very active, with pages of posts per day, with lots of regular active members and has now dwindled down to a VERY few regular posters and those odd 'classic' characters who pop their head round the door and say "hi" 2 -3 times a year, then disappear again. By contrast, "AA" (as it's abbreviated) is a site/forum dedicated to Atari as a whole, therefore, it has a broader audience and larger amount of members who's interests bleed, not only into one another's console(s) of choice, but cover a passion for Atari as a whole. Therefore, tbh, AA always had the edge when looking at the bigger picture of what is the online Atari gaming community presence. And still does. Jaguar Sector had become a minority of loyal Jag enthusiasts by the end, by which many had fallen by the wayside in one form or anther over time. Usually through some form of hostility shown towards one another at some time - either in JS-II itself, or a combination of negativity bouncing back and forth between JS-II and AA. Like rumours flying over the neighbours back wall, and back again.

AA has a lot of the angles covered tbh and has a healthy Jaguar 'sector' of it's own. Much more active than what JS-II had become in the end. I think Jay recognised all these things vs recent troubles with a few members (over different matters) and pulled the plug due to them brandishing and threatening legalities > harsh differences of opinion. Too much hassle for him vs a very quiet forum environment. Plus, I dare say, he's not as enthusiastic about the Jag as he once was 20+ years ago.

Perhaps there IS room for a new, fresh pasture for Jaguar gamers - new and old, and budding new developers and enthusiasts, to all gather round and enjoy the Jaguar once more, from a fresh perspective? I don't know.

As with the 3DO, a good portion of the discussion surrounded the hypothetical > the actual. People were more often concerned with the "what if's" and the "what could've been's" as opposed to just discussing the games - as they are today. Could the Jag have run Duke Nukem 3D? Could the Jag CD have run Quake?? What happened to Tomb Raider for Jag and how would it have run?? etc. Not all that dissimilar to here, on the 3DO forum tbh.

However, a lot of those discussions went from the simple "Yes, I think it probably could have run DN3D" to indepth technical discussions between the Jaguar ex-devs and Jaguar can-devs, throwing lots of jargon, code and mathematics around concerning the puzzling hardware as to why or why not it was or wasn't possible.

Unlike the 3DO's more proven abilities in the field of 3D (re: Need for Speed, Total Eclipse, Killing Time, Road Rash etc) largely thanks to the choice and foresight to opt for the CD format, right off the bat, the Jaguar - in many fans eyes, was never really given the chance due to a combination of Atari's abominable financial handling of the Jaguar, which in turn leaked through to the hardware and the games. There's a lot of bitterness surrounding the Jaguar at times (re: what if) and this, often, can generate a lot of tension. A lot of alluding to "but it could have" as opposed to what it did and what it was good at. The sort of behaviour exhibited 10-fold (and some) by the retro SEGA community. Anyway, it's these shortcomings and a general (global) consideration of the Jaguar's unworthiness that creates a very thick-skinned, opinionated crowd who are fiercely defensive of the Jaguar. Then, you're potentially attempting to combine that with newbies and newcomers to the console too. Which can be difficult.

There's a really, really twisted elitism surrounding the Jaguar - mainly born by the majority of gamers inability to understand the console, it's history and in consequence, it's drawbacks/strengths. Born from the minorities appreciation for something the majority of the industry damned.

I'm rambling thoughts into keyboard now, but I think an opportunity exists, but you'd definitely need to carefully consider the best way to approach the whole thing (thus your questions already, I understand?).

Small example: I recently watched a video made by a small group of development wannabe newcomers who are very enthusiastic about the Jaguar. They tried a fresh, light-hearted approach to making a Jag video entitled "Jaguar Virgins" - the idea of which was to expose an individual with ZERO knowledge or experience of the Jaguar to the console, controller and a game - for their first time ever.

Anyway, it's all done in a sit back and have a laugh at how this person interprets such events for the first time and, I remember, some of the responses to the video were from an individual who was offended by the perceived 'lack of respect' the video had shown the Jaguar and AVP.

I couldn't even be arsed replying. Seriously...

User avatar
3DO Experience
3DO ZONE ADMIN
Posts: 3686
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:47 am
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by 3DO Experience » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:03 pm

Chris has become a moderator and will be taking over the two Atari Jaguar forums we have as well as a Jag Programming forum just added. I moved them to the top of the Other section and I might just put in a Jaguar section. 3DOKid had me take over the Jag forums long ago and seeing Chris over at JSII (and he wanting to add more here) I figure he's better suited than I. Luckily my Jaguar itch came back as some of my posts over the month have shown. I just can't do any buying right now. :(
"Wait. You don't have a bag of charcoal in your gaming room???"

User avatar
Lemmi
3DO ZERO USER
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:10 pm
Location: Mich

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by Lemmi » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:59 am

time for a forum name change again :P

to: The Only 2 Systems Released in Late 93/Early 94 Zone
Ex-3DO collector extraordinaire , but i still have my collection
Villagephotos is dead, need to find my old pics and find another host

User avatar
3DOKid
3DO ZONE ADMIN
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:21 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Contact:

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by 3DOKid » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:40 am

Good idea. I'll start a poll.






































*no. actually i won't.

User avatar
T2KFreeker
3DO ZERO USER
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Parts Unknown

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by T2KFreeker » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:08 am

Nice Chris. Moderation status of the Jaguar section. I guess you have the knowledge these days over an oldschooler like me anyway. I haven't been as active in the Jaguar community as I should have been. However, since the Kid asked, my two cents are as follows; The only real advice I can give, and Chris and Neo Geo Ninja both have to agree with me on this, where the Jaguar community is concerned, if you see a lit pipe bomb coming, hit it away or find a way to put it out before it blows up in everyone's face. That last little thing between me and grimm is exactly what happened. I tried to defuse a situation before it got out of control and nobody bothered to get involved in the situation until it had blown into a huge clusterbomb. Not by my own hand, but the situation itself I was trying to stop happening, happened and then some. Jaguar fans are VERY passionate about their hobby. Some of them to the point that sometimes a little reminder may be in order that it's just video games. It's not life ending or earth shattering. You can't always take it so seriously because if you do, things just get out of control and instead of enjoyment, you end up with never ending flame wars and people's feelings getting hurt and just a downright horrid attitude from everyone involved.
Chris understand what I am aying above. He tried to help me defuse the situation with grimm and ran into the same road blocks I did. Like I said before though, the saddest thing was that if we had all gotten together and tried to stop everything from getting out of control, it may not have happened the way that it all did. Moderators of any forum need to stick together and follow their own rules set in place. It's not the wild west nor should it seem that way either. We all tried our best, but I think that in the end people some people were coming around so infrequently that once something had already started to fester, it was well on it's way to becoming a black hole and sucking everything else in with it. You made a good choice putting Chris as the moderator as he is one of the most well rounded and level headed guys I have had the pleasure of interacting with in the Jaguar community. He will be a great asset to you guys, even if grimm does think he and I are two of the biggert @$$holes on the planet anymore. LOL
This is a stick up! Put all of your 3DO games in the bag and nobody gets hurt!

User avatar
Austin
Master Poster & Pricing Expert
Posts: 1836
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:30 am
Location: Fairfax, VA
Contact:

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by Austin » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:34 pm

NeoGeoNinja wrote:As a long-term member of the recently deceased Jaguar-Sector 2 forums, the Jaguar appears to be the only console I have come across where PPL are MORE interested in the possibilities of programming and exploration of the Jaguar hardware itself, more than the commercial games line up themselves.
Yeah.. The same people can only keep talking about the same 50 or so games for so long (that's discounting the even smaller handful of games which are even worth talking about in a positive sense), if it wasn't for the homebrew scene I honestly don't think you would have that many people following the system. Even back in the late '90s on forums like Jaguar Interactive, part of what I feel kept it alive was the potential for new releases, vaporware that was announced by then-budding "homebrewers" that never saw the light of day, but projects like those kept people excited nonetheless.

User avatar
The Laird
3DO ZERO USER
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:04 pm

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by The Laird » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:24 pm

The Jaguar community has always been divided sadly but it's just got worse over the years. I dunno what it is about the Jaguar but it just seems to draw in lots of crazy people, myself included!

I think Atari fans are a very passionate bunch anyway and the general hate the Jaguar seems to get from most other gamers just makes that worse. Then you have a few people with big egos who like to shoot their mouth and upset everyone, combine that with a small passionate community and you have a recipe for disaster. I have been pretty guilty of this myself in the past, I am the first to admit I have been no angel. But that is all water under the bridge for me, I only really post on one forum these days and stay out of all the drama.

Was really sad to see what happened to JS2, I posted my thoughts in the actual JS2 thread on here. But I guess it was inevitable what with that 10P guy making threats and getting everyone's backs up, especially after he set that fake Atari Age facebook page up and started trolling people through that. But anyway I digress. I made an offer to host a Jaguar forum on my own site and will leave the offer there if people want it (also posted about this in the JS2 thread).

User avatar
Trev
3DO ZONE MOD
Posts: 4033
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: States
Contact:

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by Trev » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:27 am

I think part of it may stem from Atari fans remembering the glory days of the 2600, and the companies rich and colorful history. Seeing the heights they fell from under mismanagement and whatnot is frustrating Same thing with Nintendo fans, reflecting on the 8-bit era, and frustrated at how the Wii U has been handled - really any company with a string of hardware releases.

3DO is interesting in that it had no past history for fans to build off of. I suppose Amiga supporters perhaps.
Most wanted - Eye of Typhoon, 3DO Magazines issues #14 & #15, Pro Stadium, Defcon 5

User avatar
sneth
Nibbler
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:31 pm
Location: STL
Contact:

Re: Peace with Atarians?

Post by sneth » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:18 pm

I've seen Atari collectors. There's a lot of them that are admittedly living with their parents still.
Though, i guess a lot of gamers are like that.

Post Reply