PS3do

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:46 pm

That's a nice way to do it, then. I can't wait to see what happens once the new website opens up and we start blaring on game theory and calling game developers "a bunch of goddamn fruits."

Post by **3DOKid** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:01 pm

we're much much much less politically correct too.

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:06 pm

Well, I had a habit of beating on people a bit too hard the last time around, too. Some people loved it. Then again, I also had a few blood feuds with pasty developers as well. I ran a picture of a Ziff-Davis employee right before E3 and claimed it was a picture of me.

Tragically I don't think anybody took a swing at him.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:11 am

This is actually quite the opposite of reality. Well, halfway. Microsoft fans were pretty loud, but if you believed everything you heard then the Gamecube was the leading system in the last generation.

I actually think you misunderstood what I meant. A harcore gamer can love any, (or ideally all) systems. Point was they are much more vocal about their hobby than the casual gamer. A louder voice, but not neccessarily that of the majority. Just wanted to clarify my statement.

P.S. The Genesis lead over the SNES was certainly longer than a week. And there were a number of regions where this was true.

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:24 am

Only if you define regions as that one village where they never had any systems past the Saturn. I've heard this logic used to describe Nintendo as the leading seller in the Gamecube days. Worldwide and in the States, the Genesis never had a long-lasting lead. That it managed to touch Nintendo at the SNES's peak -indeed, Nintendo's peak- is impressive enough, we don't need to go playing numbers lawyer to try and validate anything here.

Anyway, as far as "hardcore" gamers, we're using the comparison of casual to non-casual as denotes the appeal Nintendo is going for. I am non-casual, but far from hardcore, and I think that's what this discussion is about.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:34 am

Only if you define regions as that one village where they never had any systems past the Saturn.

How can I possibly counter that line of reason?

Lemmi · Post by **Lemmi** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:36 am

Vance wrote:They are ALL computers. Even Nintendo consoles. They don't design their parts or OS from the ground up, that hasn't been done in forever. Every system takes a core component and builds their own game development tools from that.

no need to get techical on me, i know the VCS (video computer system) is the best computer around, but im just saying the newer ones are becomming MORE like actual computers you build or buy, and that doesnt appeal to me

anyone want to buy some of the 32 computers i own?

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:56 am

Trev wrote:
Only if you define regions as that one village where they never had any systems past the Saturn.
How can I possibly counter that line of reason?

Charts are always good.

Lemmi wrote:no need to get techical on me, i know the VCS (video computer system) is the best computer around, but im just saying the newer ones are becomming MORE like actual computers you build or buy, and that doesnt appeal to me

anyone want to buy some of the 32 computers i own?

I'm not terribly thrilled with the need to install PS3 games (the new Hot Shots Golf isn't graphically amazing and it still has a 3-5 minute install) but the thing is you just put the disc in and it does that for you. Beyond that, anything you do at all to modify the system is purely optional.

That said, I prefer having the options. I'm never going to install a new OS on my PS3, but it's awesome that I CAN. If I didn't like the pretty wavy lines I could put in my own dashboard, or just change the color.

Hardly the same as putting together and maintaining a PC.

Now if only the HDMI would work...

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:00 pm

Trev wrote:
This is actually quite the opposite of reality. Well, halfway. Microsoft fans were pretty loud, but if you believed everything you heard then the Gamecube was the leading system in the last generation.
I actually think you misunderstood what I meant. A harcore gamer can love any, (or ideally all) systems. Point was they are much more vocal about their hobby than the casual gamer. A louder voice, but not necessarily that of the majority. Just wanted to clarify my statement.

P.S. The Genesis lead over the SNES was certainly longer than a week. And there were a number of regions where this was true.

Wasn't that region Europe? Sega did very nicely in Europe I think. Despite the fact the EU market is comparable with Japan and US, being successful here never seems to count for much.

In Europe loudness is split between Sega, Nintendo and MS. The Sony crowd, of which I'm merely an affiliate, is pretty quiet.

Sega fans are pretty loud. Very loud in fact. I mean they, Sega, sold what? 9,000,000 Saturn's world wide, compare that to Sonys 100,000,000 PS1's. But go on the web, and you would never believe that for a second. Same for the PS2 and Dreamcast. The DC was a nice bit of kit, and had a few great games, but the support it gets is hugely disproportionate to the noise it gets.

According to the average Sega-fanboy, the last game produced, ever, was Shenmue and of cause anything with Sonic in it.

There is an Internet hive mind. Some sort of social-psychological virtual organisation. In real life we try and get on with our social group, and fit in. I think it's much harder when it's only text, but also sort of stronger.

There is also the 'revelation' factor. People love to have a revelation. Discover the Saturn has a bunch of great import games, the PS3 won't rape your granny... The 3DO has a few decent games...

Most people on the web are hardcore gamers. They can hold their own in a debate about gaming. Any aspect. I can't imagine there are many casual gamers (true casual gamers, like my dad) posting on gaming forums.

Also, I personally don't think there are more than 30-40 thousand active gamers online actively taking part in gaming debate - that's probably why it all seems so skewed anyway.

Something else I've noticed:

12 months ago.

Nintendo Wii = Greatest.
Xbox 360 = Holy.
Ps3 = Hitler.

Today, it's shifting on the big forums (Neogaff, Rllmuk, NTSC-UK)

Nintendo Wii = Losing a hell of a lot of love.
Xbox 360 = It breaks-one-more-time-I'm-getting-a-PS3
PS3 = Hitlers less evil mate.

A year ago, you go on a forum and ask what good games for the PS1, and no-one would answer, Sony was huge stigma, today people asking the same question are getting healthy answers.

The web, and it's opinions, are merely a sequence of ripples bouncing off of a pond. It's sound poetical, I know, but it's sort of true.

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:37 pm

3DOKid wrote:Wasn't that region Europe? Sega did very nicely in Europe I think. Despite the fact the EU market is comparable with Japan and US, being successful here never seems to count for much.

This I would believe, actually. Like our history classes and virtually every other aspect of life, we have virtually zero input on what life is like over there beyond "The British were evil bastards and we kicked their ass. USA! USA!" Of course, I took history in Alabama, so the teacher also tried instilling us with very conservative values and tried turning me in for not saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

Anyway, it's hard to gauge European numbers for one good reason: Most tracking lists regions as North America, Japan, and Other. I can get a general idea of how sales go so long as I don't mind lumping you guys with Australia and Laos.

In Europe loudness is split between Sega, Nintendo and MS. The Sony crowd, of which I'm merely an affiliate, is pretty quiet.

I think that's standard, probably. I'm most closely with the Sony camp, and over here it goes like this:

Nintendo: Fanboy jihad. These are the ones like my OCD customer who feel naked without their DS wristbands and wear the "Looking for a Japanese girlfriend" t-shirts.

Microsoft: Frat boy jihad. Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation estimated the online crowd as "a bunch of hooting dickholes" and that seems fairly accurate.

Sega: Forced nostalgiasts. Everything that comes out these days sucks except for Sonic Mega Collection and more derivations of Phantasy Star Universe (that's rough, watching people force themselves to like PSU just to validate their taste. It's like watching Jews gas themselves). Games like Shenmue are remembered fondly and not as time-wasting prequels to the actual story where you go around trading stupid phrases with old women.

Sony: Possibly comatose. Getting a bit riled now that their dominance is threatened (PS2 is still outselling everything, combine that, PS3, and PSP and you haven't seen them dethroned for pure numbers) and are getting a bit louder, but for the most part this is the camp that goes "Oh, your machine can do THAT? That's special, yeah. You enjoy that. Over there."

There is also the 'revelation' factor. People love to have a revelation. Discover the Saturn has a bunch of great import games, the PS3 won't rape your granny... The 3DO has a few decent games...

Indeed. While I'm fairly over in the Sony camp, it's mostly for the economics of the thing; Nintendo has a history of abuse of consumers and its developers, and Microsoft hobbles markets to contribute to its other markets, point in case being the crippling of my beloved PC gaming to support their shiny new behemoth a few years after Bill Gates dismissed console gaming as a fad next to superior PC gaming. They entered for the wrong reasons and their first party stuff is soulless crap to match, but the 360 has garnered some simply amazing exclusives from third parties. Sega was cool in that aspect, though, at least to their devs. Never had the clout to rape and pillage, though. It's the gamers they abandoned when they'd drop console support like a hot potato. The Dreamcast lost some amazing games because Sega wouldn't do the Sony thing and say "Hey, we're working on our new toy, but we're still fully behind the last generation so keep plugging away on it." Nope. Outcast and Half-Life had to die.

Most people on the web are hardcore gamers. They can hold their own in a debate about gaming. Any aspect.

I wish.

A year ago, you go on a forum and ask what good games for the PS1, and no-one would answer, Sony was huge stigma, today people asking the same question are getting healthy answers.

I think we've had a bit more time to go back to those gems, really. PS1 sales almost outdo my PS3 and 360 sales at the shop, and that's with a very limited supply of them. Course, I also had a large supply of Final Fantasy and some amazing used titles like Silent Hill and Symphony of the Night.

Still a lot of really esoteric weirdness for people to discover, like Jumping Flash and Rising Zan. But that's another discussion.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:15 pm

Most people on the web are hardcore gamers. They can hold their own in a debate about gaming. Any aspect.
I wish.

What I meant to say was they had an opinion. One they derive from everyone elses, that sort of ripples across the Internet. It then slaps them in the face on the way back, usually packing some 'new truth'. All depending on which way the wind is blowing of cause. (I'm as guilty as the next guy mind you

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:28 pm

Well guys it appears I,ve created a bit of a hornets nest here on the topic.
The bottom line is that I don't want to be a casual gamer but circumstance and life dictate otherwise.In the past week I have played civ4 on my PC , downloaded some snk & turbo grafx games on my wii and played GT5 at work on the PS3.
I have a decent PC and an XBOX PC controller so I dont need a 360 , I can play the PS3 at work because sales are so pathetic there are plenty lying around including the ones we were given by sony to give away with there high end bravia tvs - but the Wii i had to buy because they were and still are in short supply.The SNK NEO GEO was not readily available in Australia as was the Turbo Grafx so the opportunity to have and play these games has been worth the purchase price of the Wii on its own.
Australia is a very small market but here is a sobering figure- Wii was the fasting selling console in Australias history 36,000 in 4 days and has sold 335,000 since launch.All retailers have been out of stock for 2 months - since launch 360 has sold 303000 units and PS3 83000. Be careful of microsoft and sonys figures as these include units gathering dust in retail stock room and are not the actual numbers sold through to customers.Nintendo DS is the only console to sell 1,000,000 EVER in Australia. Whilst our market is small it is considered an important one by analysts as we are considered outside of Japan the fastest adopters of new technology which helps explain why NDS penetration is now 1 in 20 in this country so I stand by my original comment WE HAVE NEVER SEEN CONSOLE PENETRATION IN THESE NUMBERS BEFORE. (I wish that 3DO had marketed here!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:19 am

mattyg wrote: The bottom line is that I don't want to be a casual gamer but circumstance and life dictate otherwise.In the past week I have played civ4 on my PC , downloaded some snk & turbo grafx games on my wii and played GT5 at work on the PS3.

Casual gamers are the ones who drop ten bucks on Peggle and then the spending slows down, man. You're not casual. I don't think anybody here is casual.

I have a decent PC and an XBOX PC controller so I dont need a 360 , I can play the PS3 at work because sales are so pathetic there are plenty lying around including the ones we were given by sony to give away with there high end bravia tvs - but the Wii i had to buy because they were and still are in short supply.

Obviously you live in Wii central. PS3s cannot be had here. Besides PS2s, there's a shortage of every single console in North America.

I kind of figured Australians would be the last people to really get into waving around their magic fairy Wii wands, but... oh wait, conflation words!

Australia is a very small market but here is a sobering figure- Wii was the fasting selling console in Australias history 36,000 in 4 days and has sold 335,000 since launch.All retailers have been out of stock for 2 months - since launch 360 has sold 303000 units and PS3 83000.

Sorry, not sobering. I'm still drunk. That out of stock thing is bogus for reason I'll detail below.

Be careful of microsoft and sonys figures as these include units gathering dust in retail stock room and are not the actual numbers sold through to customers.

Yeah, okay, slow down here. They do this for the same reason Nintendo Beloved does this: That's their sales. Nintendo is not representing how many units are in households because they really don't give a shit. Supply side is never touched upon by any of those companies and they don't track it and if they claim they do then there's not enough thunderbolts in heaven to cover the lies you are believing. Case in point, when the big three weighed in on their numbers, Microsoft ignored any other competition and decided to compare their numbers straight across to the PS3, which it was whooping until the last few months. Why not compare to the Wii or even the PS2? Because it was getting somewhat outrun by the former and just whalloped in the nuts repeatedly by the latter.

Hell, Sony claimed the PS3 was outselling both the Wii and 360 in Australia. I don't believe their words, but I certainly don't believe Nintendo, a company that has tried to convince its customers that trading and renting used games is piracy.

Now that I look around, Microsoft has blithely announced that it also has the fastest selling console in Australia. And all three companies have made this claim in about every market.

And frankly, let's go back to why you had to buy your Wii. Nintendo did that on purpose, if I hadn't mentioned previously. Economics 101 teaches us about supply and demand, and Nintendo made sure the latter outweighed the former by cutting production down to bare minimum so people just WANT it more. It worked, but I only get one or two Wiis a month so the sales at my store are actually on par with the PS3 and 360. Less customers, less sales. Yeah. Brilliant.

They've openly admitted to this, too. They cut shipments on Smash Bros. Brawl and were very open about why they did it.

So let's say ten people want my mud pies and I only make two. You won't find any lying around, but does that mean it's been a far and away success? Absolutely not.

Nintendo DS is the only console to sell 1,000,000 EVER in Australia.

Kaaaay. You have over 2.3 million PS2s sold in that country. I guess that one didn't count, though, since it doesn't have the word Nintendo on it.

Whilst our market is small it is considered an important one by analysts as we are considered outside of Japan the fastest adopters of new technology which helps explain why NDS penetration is now 1 in 20 in this country so I stand by my original comment WE HAVE NEVER SEEN CONSOLE PENETRATION IN THESE NUMBERS BEFORE. (I wish that 3DO had marketed here!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

We have. And frankly, so have you, unless again the PS2 doesn't count.

And frankly, I need a reference on which analysts consider Australia to be important. I decided to run a chart on sales.

The blue bar is PS2 sales in Australia, total, since it's debut in whatever time frame it's been available there. It totals the number I quoted above.

The green bar is PS3 sales in North America, which I put there to handicap our market analysis and give Australia a leg up in the numbers. If I put it straight across with American PS2 sales, the blue bar would barely be off the ground.

The red bar is total PS2 sales in Scandinavia, which I put there because I'm a smartass.

Look, not trying to diss your country, but for early adopters you guys get releases way way after most of the rest of the world. The biggest thing our analysts tend to note about Australia is that you guys are second only to Germany when it comes time to banning games.

Post by **3DOKid** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:18 am

The old 'out of stock' ruse is at epidemic proportions in Japan. From cakes, to coats to anything. Everything is nearly always very nearly, if not very actually: out of stock. it's just a marketing ploy. If something is constantly out of stock - then it's good right? Nintendo do it all the time.

MS and Sony stuffing the sales channel: I work for I.T. vendors, and stuffing the channel is done and is standard practice because, that's how your sales commission is paid. If your commission is paid on sales into distribution (rather than sales out of distribution) you get busting to the brim sales channel. Makes sense right? And I imagine, Sony being an old hardware vendor, this is why retail and distribution are crammed full of PS3 stock. After-all, it's not like Sony can't gauge demand at this stage - of cause they can, but there are reasons why they won't. And that reason is usually 40%. Which is proportion of their salary that will be commission, from the guy on the phone to Vice Presidents.

Let me explain. If you are a lazy salesman at Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft and every quarter you need to meet you sales target/quota you simply phone up your buddy at distribution, and get him to place a stocking order. This happens the world over. You usually cajole them with the promise of advertising and marketing strategies and projected sales of the next quarter. It's always b0llocks, but hey! as long as I get bonus pay who cares?

What i guess has happened, is that marketing at Sony/MS/Ninetndo latched onto the figure and now they can't change anything, in particular the commission structure.

Of cause, if you know when the sales quarter is at the distributor and you want to cut a deal, wait until 4 days before the end of his quarter and ask for a discount

I too though Aussies were too butch to play with their Wii. It's true, I did.

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:20 am

mmmmmmmmmmm interesting figures - I was alluding to current gen consoles , my fault for not making that clear and therefore not including that wonderful pink karaoke machine called PS2.As for the early adopters comment it was in reference to technology in general - I am first to admit that when it comes to gaming we are and always will be at the butt end of the earth. We are however significant adopters of flat panels , mobile(cell)phones, GPS units and MP3 players and in the past with DVD. Our major hurdle here is that although we are in close proximity to asia we run on 240v 50hz and Pal , which makes it easier to sell us european models if they can be bothered to transport them that far This is why we never saw the 3do , jag , neo geo , cdi , etc - it was just too small a market to either extensively modify platforms or just too expensive to transport to - we did have the cd32 because amiga did have local distributers and the product needed no modification.
Its easy to move units if you give them away so kudos to sony for winning the bluray hd battle and avoiding the beta fiasco again.I just know as a retailer that although I can move some PS3,s I have much more success selling high end media centres with bluray drives for higher prices and higher profit margins than the PS3. Maybe PS3 sales in this country will improve when the hd tuner add on turns up , but I know they lost a lot of potential customers when they reduced the hard drive capacity , removed backwards compatibility and took out the card reader.It seems to me that PS3 IS having the same identity crisis that 3do did "am I a games machine or a multi media device?" Sony are trying a foot in both camps and not really convincing either.
I'm sorry but playing battalion wars II was as close as i can get now to Return Fire and I loved it for it - the same way I felt playing GT5 and thinking that this is what need for speed should have become.
The PS3 has some merits - there I said it. But profit margin isnt one of them , as guarded as nintendo marketing and licensing is , it is the only platform i make decent profit on hardware , accessories and software.I need to sell 3 PS3s to every wii to make the same money so as a retailer I am glad its the other way around.

There are obviously demographic differences between my market and yours - here Nintendo is winning but the fight is only really starting.I repeat I am not a die hard Nintendo fan - far from it - I am a gaming fan and will play anything that appeals to me - whatever platform -its just that I dont have wads of cash to spend on it anymore or enough spare hours of daylight (or night) to enjoy it the way I used to.It doesnt make me any less of a gamer just a bit pickier.

3DO is dead , long live the 3DO!

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:25 pm

PS3s cannot be had here.

I can't speak for everywhere, but they most certainly can be had here in the New England area. I work part time in retail, and the stores in our district have never had a shortage of Sony products within the past year (maybe the psp) PS3's were in ample supply over the holiday (can't say the same for 360's, Wii's or the DS Lite's)

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:13 am

I dont there is anything too girly about blasting zombies with pleasure on my wii - Resi Evil rocks on any platform.

One game I wish would be converted to wii but sadly never will is "Cricket"

Its tough for any game not played in US or Japan to get a console guernsey but xbox and ps2 had a couple. The emerging Indian market would be ripe for the picking if there are any developers reading this - imagine 1 billion Indians swinging there wii remotes in battle against the Aussie infidels and their Pakistani counterparts $$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as it involves killing , swinging a bat or both i'm down with it

3do is dead , long live 3do

ps does England still have a team 3do kid?

Post by **3DOKid** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:53 pm

Do we still have a team? Cricket Team? You talking to me?

You take that back you Prawn-Barbecuing-corked-hat-wearing-XXXX-swigging-Kylie-exporting-Aussie.

I am mortally insulted. Mortally. Do you hear me?

The British invented cricket, and we were good enough to teach you heathens how to play it, and then sporting enough to let you win. And this is how we get thanked?

Cricket would have been so much easier to win, if we had never handed out the rule book.

Or indeed, translated it. Still - wouldn't have worked with you lot would it? Damn.

And here is to killing things in 3D. Long may in continue.

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:48 pm

okay I take the point on cricket and thank you for using the term prawn and not shrimp it shows that there at least some culture left in England after our attempted sabotage with Kylie.

On behalf of my countrymen I'd like to apologise for Kylie and thank the BBC for finishing her performance in Dr Who by sending her to firery grave at the helm of a forklift - inspiring!

I'd like to put it out there seriously though about India - a massive untapped potential market for gaming - if only the US and Japan actually looked.

A billion wiimotes mmmmmmmmmm now that is sobering/frightening

3do is dead , long live 3do

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:41 am

mattyg wrote: The PS3 has some merits - there I said it. But profit margin isnt one of them , as guarded as nintendo marketing and licensing is , it is the only platform i make decent profit on hardware , accessories and software.I need to sell 3 PS3s to every wii to make the same money so as a retailer I am glad its the other way around.

I do not understand why you feel the need to lie here. Nintendo's profit margin on hardware is the absolute worst, harsher even than software, which is usually more profitable than accessories.

I have confirmed this with other dealers in Australia. You are getting some amazing deals. Nintendo truly loves you. Or else you are taking birth control pills, which I understand are delicious and made of sugar but tend to befuddle the mind a bit.

Sixaxis and 360 controller: $15 profit. Nintendo remote AND nunchuck: < $10 profit.

Wii points card: $1.30 profit.

I repeat I am not a die hard Nintendo fan - far from it -

wonderful pink karaoke machine called PS2.

true gaming etc etc

pink karaoke machine

Nintendo DS is the only console to sell 1,000,000 EVER in Australia.

Flog flog flog.

bonefish · Post by **bonefish** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:46 pm

Maybe the controllers don't large profits but the console itself does. Its just a pumped up gamecube with a dual media loading drive and no real HD capability, its one cheap mofo.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157690.html

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:46 am

Vance, it sounds like you're quoting retailer profit margins. While it sounds like those are low, Nintendo itself is making good profits off of the price retailers are paying.

mattyg · Post by **mattyg** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:24 pm

sorry been out of action for a while as a fire in my study caused by a faulty battery on an alarm system tok out my main server at home.

Just wanted to clarify on retailer profit margins that myself and Vance seem to agree to disagree over.

All electronic retailers here want to push the ps3 for the simple reason that sony wants them to.Take significant numbers of ps3's and sony will favour you when the next round of Bravia TV's hit the shores - it is flat out blackmail but it works.We then have to take hits profitwise to then move them so we dont get stuck with significant inventory - current ps3 bundle with either GT5 or GTAIV nets us about $30 profit.
Alternatively the Wii which is still in short supply but retains high demand does not need discounting and keeps its profit of around $90 per unit - so yes I do need to sell 3 times as many PS3's to make the same money.
So I wholeheartedly reject Vances crys of liar as my invoices tell me otherwise.
Wii fit incidently sold 36000 units here on launch and to add to everyones amazement we have finally started to move 360s and ps3's in more significant numbers since the release of GTAIV and GT5prologue.
It proves the old adage that killerapps sell machines not technology.

Incidently on the PC gaming front Conan is selling like hotcakes and is proving to be the biggest PC hit of 2008 here in Australia nudging out Bioshock for top honours.

As I have said before no matter what camp we are in gaming is looking healthier across the board and that is a good thing.

3DO is dead long live 3DO