Your Fantasy 32-bit Console.

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Your Fantasy 32-bit Console.

Post by Auto-Fox » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:06 pm

Ever looked at all the amazing technology that was available in the early to mid '90s, and thought "wouldn't it be cool if..."
We've all dreamed of a fantasy console at some point. Your personal definition of retro gaming awesome stewed to perfection in a piece of hardware that exists only in your mind.
My question is, what would the specifications be?
Assuming you know something about technology (and I imagine you do if you're here), plan out your own fantasy console. Describe what it would be like, and discuss the designs of others!
It's a pipe dream, but if you plan it now, something might come of it someday.

Here, then, is my own console.

Name:
Horizon.
Hardware Specifications:
- 1x Motorola 68EC020 32-bit CPU.
- 2x Motorola 68EC000 16-bit embedded processors (one for sound and input processing, one for video control and as a Blitter for sprites and 3D effects).
- 2 MB of ROM (for firmware, including embedded OS and other software specs).
- 3 MB of RAM.
- 1 MB of VRAM.
- 2 MB Flash memory.
- 4x 18-pin expansion ports.
- 1x 4x speed CD-ROM drive.
- 1x 9-pin controller port.
- RCA A/V out.
- RF coaxial out.
Software Specifications:
- Amiga OS based or similar embedded OS (with internal memory manager), accessible when booting without a disc.
- MPEG-1 (VCD) compatibility.
- 24-bit color CinePak compatibility.
- CD Digital Audio compatibility.
- Photo CD compatibility.
- CD+G compatibility.
- CD-Text compatibility.
- Software VLM (Virtual Light Machine) and on-screen graphical DB meters for audio CDs.
Standard Controller:
- 8-button joy-pad (6 face buttons, 2 shoulder buttons) with standard D-Pad. Has "chording" (multiple buttons held down at once) support. Also has start button, select button, and 2nd controller input port (controllers link together, similar to the 3DO) which also handles peripherals like "rumble" packs and the like (controller peripherals have extra controller input so as not to compromise multiplayer capability).
Buttons are marked with symbols seen on CD player controls, and can be used as such for audio CD playback.
Button markings (in order):
D-Pad: left = skip backward, right = skip forward, up = scan forward, down = scan backward.
Lower Face Buttons: A = repeat 1, B = repeat A to B, C = repeat all.
Upper Face Buttons: X = program, Y = volume down, Z = volume up.
Function Buttons: play = play/pause, select = stop.
Shoulder Buttons: L = toggle CD+G settings backward, R = toggle CD+G settings forward.
When the "program" button is pushed in CD player mode, the CD automatically pauses and a menu comes up on screen. You can use the controller normally to tinker with audio and VLM settings, as well as program a sequence of play for the tracks on your CD, among other things.
Optional Peripherals:
- ReaLink 56k voice-band modem based on V.92 specifications.
- Keyboard Controller with built-in track-ball mouse.
- Horizon Helm motion-tracking VR headset video display (usable with compatible 3D software).
- Second Drive external CD drive, for making custom soundtracks for your games by assigning tracks on your favorite CDs to different levels/scenarios (usable with compatible software).
- Horizon Disk Drive 5-1/4" Floppy Disk drive, for game save backups and other applications.
- A/V Expansion Pack, with RGB out and in, S-Video out and in, RCA A/V in, RF coaxial in, stereo microphone port, MIDI port, (auxiliary) RCA stereo line in, and A/V editing software and output control software.
- Ace Advantage analog joystick controller.
- Race Wheel analog driving controller.
- Crosshair light gun controller.
- Kick Pack force-feedback controller expansion (for use with normal joy-pad, Ace Advantage joystick, Race Wheel driving controller or Crosshair light gun).
Description:
My console, currently named the Horizon, is a 32-bit game machine with a myriad of functions. It is designed primarily as a 2D powerhouse, with 3D capabilities comparable (but somewhat superior) to the Sega 32X. Games would be available on CD, with generous internal flash memory for game saves, and an external floppy drive peripheral for backups (and "other applications"). In its base form, it would be fairly basic in its capabilities, with simple RF and RCA A/V video and audio output. It is highly expandable, however, with 4 18-pin expansion ports on the back, and one on each controller (which connect to one-another like 3DO controllers).
Internal software allows for compatibility with CD+G, VCD, CD-Text and Photo CD, and the system comes with an embedded, cut down but still functional operating system similar to (or even based on) the old Amiga OS. When not playing games, one could use the system (especially equipped with the optional keyboard controller and 56k modem) as a standard computer, and perhaps do a little hobbyist programming for it.
The aforementioned modem can also be used for direct-dial 2+ player matches, among other things.

*Specifications subject to change.

Anyway, that's my fantasy machine. What do you think? And further, what's yours?
Last edited by Auto-Fox on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:43 pm, edited 15 times in total.
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Post by Tatsumaru » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:32 pm

With all that, this console would cost even more than the Panasonic FZ1 and would probably bankrupt...
Still since it's only our "dream machine" I guess it's alright. :)
I don't know the expecifications of the console itself, so I'll make my console based mostly on what I know being a GAMER, not a hardware expert:

The CD tray should be like the 3DO FZ1, it's kinda awesome the way it opens so you can insert the game, toploaders are lame...
It should look like the Sega Saturn, Sega Saturn look it's pretty badass, playstation it's too simple and 3DO FZ-1 looks like a VCR, so...
It should be as powerful as the first playstation, it had some nice power under the hood for a good price.

Pretty much it, just a fusion of the 3 32 bits consoles getting what's best from each I guess.

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Post by Auto-Fox » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:51 pm

Sounds like a pretty good machine you've got there...

Also, I agree, my fantasy machine would have been expensive in, say, 1995. But, if it were made today to those specifications, I actually think it could be made for a pretty reasonable price. Notice, all the really exotic stuff is optional peripherals or software, and you only really need the core system. If it were indeed produced today, I think I would market it as basically a hobbyist/nostalgia machine. Functional enough for someone who likes to tinker in their spare time, but retro and simple enough for someone just pining for simpler days.
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Post by BryWI » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:57 am

Why the motorola 68k for processor power? It was quite dated by that time and everything from video game consoles to japanese computers was/were using it. Wouldn't traditional current PC processors of the time be more suited?

I bet it was a similar discussion that started the xbox. heh.

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Post by Auto-Fox » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:09 am

Well, it's a matter of optimization. The 68000 architecture, even in its 32-bit iteration, is much better for 2D graphics (the primary focus of this console) than many later processors. The X68000, Amiga 1200 and even Neo.Geo used it, and my thinking is if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. Plus, two of its cousins helping things along won't hurt its performance any. Essentially, this thing has more in common with the CD32 than anything else.
Plus, it's cheaper than anything else, which could only help it if it ever found its way onto the market.
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Post by 3DOKid » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:13 pm

I want to see a block diagram and a mock-up picture please.

Image

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Post by 3DO Experience » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:31 pm

Name:
Barracuda.
Release Date
Summer of '95
Hardware Specifications:
- 1x A30 POWER2 RISC CPU.
- 1x ATRAC audio decoder.
- 1x MD Data magneto-optical disc drive.
- 1x 9-pin controller port.
Back Ports:
Video:
- 1x Composite Out.
- 1x S-video Out.
- 1x Component Out.
Audio:
- 1x Left, Right, Center and Surround Out.
- 1x Optical Out.
Other:
- 4x Expansion Ports.
Software Specifications:
- Custom OS, games will be written to directly use the hardware.
- MiniDisc Audio playback.
Standard Controller:
- 8-button joy-pad (6 face buttons, 2 shoulder buttons) with D-Pad and analog stick. Has "chording" (multiple buttons held down at once) support. Also has start button, select button, and 2nd controller input port (controllers link together, similar to the 3DO). System comes with two.
Optional Peripherals:
- ReaLink 56k voice-band modem based on V.92 specifications.
- Keyboard Controller with built-in track-ball mouse.
- 3 1/2" MF2-HD floppy drive, for game save backups and loading date from PC.
Description:
The Barracuda, named to make the competition look weak. It's games discs use Data Minidiscs ,this does limit it's compatibility for other CD based media however it's drive has write capabilities. This allows it to write save game data directly onto the disc and since the technology employed is insanely robust you will never loose your save states... unless you take a disc with you into a MRI machine. New data and game updates can be written directly to the disc via the modem or floppy drive. With the modem you can log into the Barracuda Network, which supports network multilayer severs, and newsgroups. You can also use it do call a friend directly for one-on-one play. The newsgroups will be the regular set up but with a section "cuda." like "cuda.games.guides" You can download player's guides and save them to your floppy drive and then access then while you are playing a game. Any graphics that need to be present that cannot be displayed in Unicode will use GIFs, since we are using this on a standard TV the images won't need to be massive. Patch files for games can also be saved to floppy as well as save states. These can be uploaded in a DOS compatible format and can be shared on a PC or the network.

Auto, I obviously kept you format to keep things compatible, I also left some of your text and modified others as it was faster than typing my own. I actually thought of all of this while at work yesterday and hadn't read your post beyond the 1 MB of VRAM. We had a lot of similar ideas, maybe our fantasy companies would join forces after a generation or two.
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Post by Auto-Fox » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:50 pm

Awesome stuff! And oh man, our two mind-companies should definitely do that at some point.
In the meantime, I'm stewing up a hand-held...

Also, one other thing. ReaLink is a brand-name associated with the company that makes the Horizon.
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Post by 3DO Experience » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:04 pm

Ah, I wanted to have a modem and since you had a detailed description with wikilink I assumed ReaLink was just a damn good brand. Look like our companies are fated to work together. :)
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Post by Auto-Fox » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:29 pm

^^ Indeed!
Anyway, here's the preliminary specs for my portable:

Name:
Drifter.
Hardware Specs:
- 1x Motorola 68EC000 CPU.
- 1x Zilog Z80 (sound processor).
- 156 KB of RAM.
- 64 KB of VRAM.
- 56 KB of ROM (for embedded firmware).
- Integrated 320 x 224 CSTN LCD screen.
- White LED back-light.
- Integrated stereo speakers.
- Standard 3.5mm TRS stereo headphone/microphone jack (switchable).
- RCA A/V out/in (switchable).
- S-Video out/in (switchable).
- Cartridge input.
- 9-pin communications cable input (also supports connectivity with Horizon game console).
- AC converter input (power rating unknown).
- 6x AA battery bay with recharging capability (with rechargeable AAs).
Software Specs:
- Horizon console interface.
Controls:
- 6-button layout, with 6 face buttons and a standard digital D-Pad. Also start and select buttons.
Peripherals:
- Playback Pack MP3/WAVE format digital music player cartridge, has 128 MB of storage space, 9-pin serial connector for PC interface, and recording capabilities using the Drifter's integrated stereo microphone jack.
- TwoTap communication cable, attaches to 9-pin communication cable port. Can be used for 2+ player matches between Drifters, or to connect to a Horizon game console's controller input.
- RangeTap wireless RF communication adapter, attaches to 9-pin communication cable port, requires 3 AAA batteries, or having the Drifter plugged in.
- TelTap 28.8k voice-band modem with MOH (Modem On Hold) capability for high-latency digital connections. Can be used for sharing or downloading game-save data and other information over direct-dial connections, or engaging in long-range multiplayer matches. Connects to 9-pin communication cable port.
Description:
The drifter is a 16-bit hand-held console designed for the serious gamer on the go. With architecture rivaling a full-sized 16-bit console, it can be hooked up to a standard television via its built-in RCA A/V package or S-Video, which can both serve as inputs as well, allowing the console to serve as a handy screen for other devices.
Speaking of which, the console also has a color, back-lit LCD screen, as well as stereo speakers and a stereo headphone/microphone jack.
Media is stored on small ROM cartridges about as big as a small book of matches. Peripherals for the system include a link cable for 2 or more player action, the port for which can also be used to connect a standard Horizon joy-pad for two-player action on one console. You can also use it to connect your Drifter to a Horizon game console to unlock extra functionality in games for both consoles. This port also serves as a connector for a cordless version of the link cable, or a 28.8k modem for on-line interaction via a direct-dial connection to a server or other Drifter console.
Also, a media cartridge is available which enables your Drifter to become a music player. The 128 MB Playback Pack can interface with your home computer to load music files, and allows your Drifter to play MP3 and WAVE audio. It can also function as a digital recording device when a microphone is plugged into the Drifter's stereo headphone/microphone port.
Power for the Drifter is provided either by 6 AA batteries (rechargeable AAs can be recharged on-board), or via an AC adapter. So, it's a thirsty beast, but for all you get, I'd say it's worth it.
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Post by 3DO Experience » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:17 am

I like that name! The video inputs & outputs are great!
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Post by Auto-Fox » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:48 pm

We should really plan a 128-bit machine together next.
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Post by Auto-Fox » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:21 pm

Sorry to double-post, but I have concept art for the Horizon!

Image
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Post by 3DOKid » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:00 pm

3DOKid wrote:True Dax 1000

Image
Naturally, it's ace.

64 bit architecture where needed. 3Mb DRAM, 2Mb VRAM.
Custom gSoul engine
Latest 486 Intel processor
Twin DSPs for true arcade in the home.
Region Free.
2 x CDROM
Target Launch: March '94
Launch Titles:

- Doom gEdition.
- Unamed arcade racer
- Unamed 3D fighter
- Capcom Street Fighter II turbo
- Mortal Kombat III gPsycho Ed.

Intel Processor was choosen to aid the porting of PC games.
20Mb HDD included as all the libraries and developement tools are open source and free to whoever wants them. supported platforms: Mac/Amiga/PC

Distribution via the gSoul BBS's.

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Post by Auto-Fox » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:51 pm

Oh my...
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Post by phatrat1982 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:32 pm

Mine would basically be the Neptune only with a few minor changes.



1- native VCD support no add on. (I would even pack in a free movie and free game no non entertainment software though)
2. built in memory system for game saves maybe 512 KB
3. 2MB RAM expandable to 4MB
4. RAM cart packed in with top selling game to push adoption.
5. "smart color encoding chip" basically a special chip to apply more colors to existing 16 bit games by extrapolating what colors ought to be there based on what is there kind of like HD upconverting but with colors. Option to disable in start up BIOS
6. Optical or Coaxial audio outputs to really take advantage of that CD audio.
7. 2x or 4x CD-ROM
8. Memory Expansion Modules (kind of like PSX memory cards)
9. Dolby Digital or DTS support
10. MP3 Playback (I know it was new but would have been a hell of a feature)




As for marketing it would be like this. First NO Saturn to compete with, 32X addon still sold first BUT with improvements mentioned above where possible.


Promotional deal where you can trade in Genesis Console with 5 Games and 2 Controllers to get a Neptune at $150 discount to the launch price of $250

Would come in a couple of bundles, first bundle console plus 2 6 button pads, game (most likely Virtua Fighter) and a VCD movie (most likely Robocop or some Van Dame Movie) and a special MP3 mix cd containing the "best of the best" of Sega soundtracks.


Second bundle would be console, 1 6 button pad, Game (probably Virtua Racing) and still a movie but probably Top Gun Coupon for Mix CD also

Third bundle console, game pad, and 1 game probably Sega Arcade Hits (Sega CD game)


Final bundle console and 1 game pad only no pack in.


I would price it starting at 250 and each bundle would be $25 less than one above it.

would offer special trade in upgrade program on cart to cd based games (something they really should have done anyways)


Program works like this you mail in your complete Sega cart with book and case with say $10 plus $5 for shipping and they send you the CD version brand new in the mail.

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Post by Auto-Fox » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:21 pm

Nice! I love Neptune "what if" speculation stuff, I've done a little myself on other forums...
Y'know, the 32X deserves more love than it gets... basically, it was a decree handed down by Sega of Japan to Sega of America, who proceeded to do very well within the time and budget constraints they were given. Of course, they were making the best of a bad situation, as the Saturn was all set to blow it out of the water as soon as it saw the light of day...
With a few changes, though, I think it could have been a great console, as you demonstrate.
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Post by Trev » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:56 pm

Really? I think the 32X gets plenty of love from Sega fanboys (I used to be one back in the day) But when Sega themselves admit that they screwed up w/32X by over promising and under delevring, I can't disagree.

That being said, I'd totally buy a Neptune if it ever got released.
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Post by phatrat1982 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:52 am

As far as 32X goes, or went, I never considered it a full console I always ever considered it a part of the Genesis, in that context it kicked ass it gave the Genesis power to play games it otherwise could not have done so well. Yes if you were wanting it to be a full blown next gen system it failed because Saturn was right round the corner. BUT if Saturn had never been released I think Neptune would have been and would have really shined because it had two advantages over Playstation in the early days that Saturn lacked, first it could play Genesis games so no worries about alienating your fanbase and two it used carts *and* discs so you got the best of both worlds. I honestly think had Sega went with Neptune they would still be in the market today and Playstation and Xbox would have never been successful.



Here is why I think this way.



WHEN 32X was announced and it got a lot of hype Genesis fans ate it up. YES most of the early software was only slightly better than their 16bit counterparts, BUT that is always true when going from one generation to the next look at the early Genesis games, nothing to brag about in the first year of it's life really.


The reason why Neptune, and 32X, would have been a success had Saturn never been released is also because all those Sega Genesis fans could have easily upgraded to their 32X unit and start getting in on those new 32 bit games which if saturn was not on the way Sega and other devs would have really shown what it could do. Also if it had been given the full on treatment of a hybrid console as Neptune was to be it would have been the next gen console for those who did not yet have a Genny to upgrade to.



Also Sonic 32 Blast looked bad on Saturn but the Genesis port was impressive compared to the saturn port so with slightly lower expectations for 32x the game could have found a nice middle ground and could have been a decent game. Now I still like the game but I hate how it never got a 32x port just a rushed Saturn job and a sloppy Genesis port.



Then once 32x/Neptune would have initially been successful all those games people wish it would have had and think about this all the games that made Saturn so special, would have all been on 32x/Neptune and Playstation would not have divided Sega fans they would have remained united and not alienated. Which with a united front would have made Dreamcast a killer console to really be reckoned with. Yes I was and always will be a Sega Fan no apologies or regrets here.

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Post by Auto-Fox » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:48 pm

This is exactly what I've been saying for years... it's great to find someone who agrees with me.

Personally, though, my argument is that, while the 32X DID have its flaws (it was awkward to hook up and never had truly good development tools available for it), it was a CHEAPER system than pretty much anything else in the 32-bit arena at the time. The Neptune would have retailed for about $200, as opposed to the Saturn, which was twice that.
As a Sega fan, I would never say that the Saturn was a BAD console. In fact, I see it as one of the most incredible machines of the 1990s in terms of hardware and software.
Does that mean it was practical?
Hell no.
The Saturn, while an incredibly capable and powerful system in the hands of a skilled programmer, was not suited to be a home console. The fact that its hardware worked equally well as a stripped-down arcade platform should be a clue.
The biggest secret to the Genesis' success, I believe, was that it had a lower price-point than most of the competition. That and the games, but that's a discussion for another time. The fact is, the Genesis always did better in lower income brackets than the SNES or other consoles.
Then, in comes the Saturn, with its $400 price tag, literally twice what the Genesis cost at launch. Basically, this alienated Sega's base, who were used to Sega stuff costing less, and weren't about to shell out that much for the Saturn.
Meanwhile, they could have just stuck with the 32X architecture, which was far simpler to produce, cheaper to buy, and was by its very nature perfect for Sega's existing markets.
The 32X, and Neptune, could have benefited from a few things, like better development tools and a slightly more refined hardware design (the "mushroom" 32X has a few problems in that department), but for the most part I regard them as great systems, if slightly... unusual, in concept.
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Post by phatrat1982 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:42 pm

>>This is exactly what I've been saying for years... it's great to find someone who agrees with me.<<


It is nice to find a fellow Sega fan who has common sense. I got so sick of the negativity over at the official sega forums man I don't think I have logged in there since maybe around the time it was announced Sega might publish some fancy FPS for the Wii or something like that.


>>Personally, though, my argument is that, while the 32X DID have its flaws (it was awkward to hook up and never had truly good development tools available for it), it was a CHEAPER system than pretty much anything else in the 32-bit arena at the time. The Neptune would have retailed for about $200, as opposed to the Saturn, which was twice that.
As a Sega fan, I would never say that the Saturn was a BAD console. In fact, I see it as one of the most incredible machines of the 1990s in terms of hardware and software.<<


Well at the time Sega OWNED the arcade scene pretty much hands down, their only competition was from Capcom and Midway. I loved the Saturn but agree it was too damn expensive and I don't by the development being harder as an issue because PS2 and PS3 are supposed to be harder to program for but they are lucrative so devs put in the extra work to get the most out of it. I do think that some developers might have been biased against Sega but I think it was more Sony trying to buy devs away from Nintendo and in the process screwed Sega along the way.





>>The biggest secret to the Genesis' success, I believe, was that it had a lower price-point than most of the competition. That and the games, but that's a discussion for another time. The fact is, the Genesis always did better in lower income brackets than the SNES or other consoles.

Meanwhile, they could have just stuck with the 32X architecture, which was far simpler to produce, cheaper to buy, and was by its very nature perfect for Sega's existing markets.<<



Exactly why I had a Sega in the first place and didn't get a Super Nintendo until AFTER N64 came out, money. I also had more friends with Sega than Super so it was easier to trade games.


By the time I got a job and was ready to buy me a Saturn, it was too late they killed it off and Dreamcast was on the way and at that time I sadly turned my back on Sega and got a N64 instead. Yeah I was always half a generation behind but whatever we were poor.




I have never been a fan of modding consoles but if I ever did a console mod I would basically build the Neptune with Sega CD built in and make that my ultimate console.

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Post by Trev » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:06 am

The more complex development cycle and likening Sega w/Sony is a fair enough comparison at first glance but, imho, probably not the best one.

Sega was already accumulating errors by the time of Saturn. Nintendo had finally overtaken them after being behind a couple years w/ overrated hits like DKC. They were already oversaturating the market thanks to Gen, Scd, 32X, GG, Pico :? W/Saturn, their was no doubt customer confusion (which console should I get?) Bernie Stolar was perhaps not the one to helm Sega for Saturns launch (he did far better w/the DC) They pissed off retailers and confused customers w/their surprise early launch, and the lineup at the time did little to inspire people w/Psx on the horizon. etc...

The first Psx was said to be very easy to work for, and they had a clean slate in the console field so to speak, and good realtionships w/others. So even if PS2 and certainly PS3 were more difficult it was more of a non factor at that point. Sony had dominated 2 console generations. Sega had maintained a slim lead for what, 2 years?
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Post by phatrat1982 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:20 pm

You forgot to mention the Nomad it was on the market around that time too. Although that is a entirely different discussion.
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Post by Trev » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:26 pm

phatrat1982 wrote:You forgot to mention the Nomad it was on the market around that time too. Although that is a entirely different discussion.
Ah, the Nomad ... you are right, it did slip my mind. I wanted one back in the day ... still do to some extent.
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Post by phatrat1982 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:45 pm

I actually had one and I was so excited when it came out I thought cool now they can compete with GB *and* keep making Genesis games cuz by then Saturn was already out or right around the corner. It was the coolest shit ever I miss mine it got cracked and then eventually died on me. I sold it on ebay for a good load of money and had to settle for negative feedback cuz it was broke but I took pictures of it being broke and stated it was in auction so I did appeal but I don't think it mattered. ebay sucks though i hate them so much now.
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Post by Trev » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:47 pm

Ebay is only good if you are a buyer. I don't sell on Ebay anymore, since they keep changing policies that make it easier for the buyers at the expense of the sellers.
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Post by phatrat1982 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:30 am

Yeah I hear that. I was a seller and I used to do pretty good a long time ago. But as a buyer I never liked ebay I prefer to physically handle a product before I purchase it. Maybe I am just getting old or something but I really hate buying anything online honestly.
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Post by Auto-Fox » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:24 pm

I'd have to agree with you on that one. My favorite way to buy old games is at this one store I like to visit. They've been in business since 1980 or something ridiculous like that, and they have TONS of stuff, all of which you can ask to examine personally.
It's a bit of a drive, but I've always preferred it to getting stuff online.
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