Page 1 of 1

Original Star Wars & ProLogic II

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:04 am
by 3DO Experience
I just got a new receiver a few weeks ago and I’ve been playing around with it’s upscaling features, so I popped in the original Star Wars trilogy DVDs and upscaled them. The picture looks good BUT the surround is off.

I did most of the testing with Empire & Jedi as the first one had bad surround. My old receiver did ProLogic and they sounded great but my new one has ProLogic II and they sound messed up. Sounds/voices popping in and out of the surround channel.

I also tested out the SE LaserDiscs and same prob, then the first LD pressings of the non-SE and it’s STILL THERE! The only decent decoding I could get was off the first LDs using the digital track but though the analog outputs. All other LDs with ProLogic work fine w/ optical out. Anyone have a clue what is going on?

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:33 pm
by mattyg
upscaling causes a delay because the software/firmware is constantly redrawing/guessing pixels- most receivers allow you to adjust the sound delay but its not always effective. What type of video cable are you using - HDMI or component? coaxial digital is better than optical for audio in these cases - try this with HDMI if possible. Faster video transfer /slower audio combination is the key otherwise just use analog until hd versions are released ( don't hold your breath).
hope this helps - I sell this stuff for a living!

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:26 am
by 3DO Experience
I don't know why I didn't think about the receiver trying to adjust the timing... maybe because it was only on these movies. I'll have to try just a passthru tomorrow and see if that fixes it. For your info out of the LD player I'm using a composite out (LD video is stored this way so the pic looks best with this plus the chroma filter) and mainly the optical for digital out. My receiver is outputting HDMI and I was upscaling to 720p as 1080i looks odd sometimes from LD sources.

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:14 pm
by matt163201
Most LD players cant even put out 480P natively. The players that have component and are DVD combo players also dont put ot 480P with LD either. S video is a better choice depending on the player as well. I hope your receiver is better than Dolby PL2 cause if it isnt it is really out of date.

FYI, the reason the image may look a bit funky is cause youre trying to upscale a regular 480I image to something way more than it is thru composite, you would probably have better success with component from LD to receiver, then HDMI from receiver to source

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:44 pm
by 3DO Experience
There is no component on regular LDs, that is only for DVD out. LDs store video info in composite RF, even the S video jack is just a composite source split in to luminance and chroma. And yes my receiver can do more then PLII, WAY more. All LD players cannot put out 480p, no player, not even the high-def players, have progressive. In fact LD rarely reaches the full 425 TV lines (for NTSC) or 480 on anamorphic LDs due in part to video master tapes, in part to pre-mastering practices, and other factors.

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:56 am
by mattyg
your dead right - personally I prefer to use the best of technology a device was designed for not some modern add on - call me a purist but it gets the best results. Composite is the only way to go for LD's , however I would use a heavy duty 75ohm similar to that in coax digital for the picture.No need to go anything as expensive as MONSTER but try one of the titanium or gold based ones - there are decent generics out there. I'd stick with analogue for the audio and let your receiver do the work. Also bypassing the receiver for picture and plugging the video cable direct to the TV may also work.
Nice to see a fellow enthusiast !
PS for the 3do guys I recommend s-video into a 68cm Sony WEGA or panasonic Tau for best picture - its as good as it gets - if you must use it on flat screen a cheap plasma at anything ? x 480 res set to 4:3 will be ok and dont forget the light guns only work on CRT's!

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:47 pm
by 3DO Experience
Well the add-on was the DVD, I almost bought one of the combo players and I'm so glad I didn't. DVD was the up and coming thing so they decided to make a system that would play those too back in the day, little did anyone know the LD playback was crap on those models.

MONSTER cables actually aren't really as good as everyone thinks, if you want great cables you will need to pay the price 'cause the best are more expensive. Plus, a lot of people are fooled by gold plating. Gold does NOTHING in picture/sound that you can notice with your eyes/ears, it's conductivity just happened to be a smidgen higher, the gold is for corrosion protection.

For the audio I was hoping to just pull the pure PCM stream for the movies. I’m gonna leave the opt. cable in but I’ll test the films from now on and leave myself a note. Oh and get this, I watched The DOORS the other night and sides 1 & 2 were fine but when it came to 3 the surround did it again. I have yet to try turning off the upscale to see if that’s the cause. Got like 4 new Wii games including Guitar Hero Aerosmith so I’ve been distracted.

I’m not going to bypass the receiver for video, I’ve done that and I need to zoom in on it or I’ll have a letterboxed image in a windowboxed image. Zoom = too blurry and my screen is about 5feet x 9feet (1.524m x 2.743 2m), I am not having a tiny little image in the center. LOL I actually feel funny digitizing a sweet analog image like that.

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:26 pm
by mattyg
8) sounds like you got your best options sorted - letterboxing sux - I know - try living in a country that runs on a pal system! we're used to it!
The doors thing is kind of weird though - disc 3 could have been encoded on a different production run and then all discs collated at a different point.Or someone got lazy with the masters or the discs are different ages.
I hate upscaling regardless of what the manufacturers say - its like digital zoom on cameras - not worth the paper its written on-like I said i am a purist!
By the way have Guitar Aerosmith up and running in the shop - AWESOME!

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:05 am
by 3DO Experience
I'll have to check the mint marks.

I love the interviews in GH:A!

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:31 pm
by mattyg
loved the interviews too!

best thing steve tylers responsible for -............Liv

mmmmmmmmmmmm.......thats one fine woman!

as the kid would say - GOODIES!

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:22 am
Why are you using Pro Logic II on DVDs? Pro Logic is basically fake surround sound. It uses 2 ch audio with special algorithms to figure out 3 or 4 channels. DVDs have either Dolby Digital or DTS on them with at least 5.1 (6 ch) on the DVD! No need to use Pro Logic at all!

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:46 am
by mattyg
:wink: yeah we know but these are ld not dvd :wink:

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:16 pm
by 3DO Experience
MN12BIRD wrote:Why are you using Pro Logic II on DVDs? Pro Logic is basically fake surround sound. It uses 2 ch audio with special algorithms to figure out 3 or 4 channels. DVDs have either Dolby Digital or DTS on them with at least 5.1 (6 ch) on the DVD! No need to use Pro Logic at all!
Um because these are the Theatrical Versions that Lucas released and they are in Stereo. They are "encoded" with Dolby Pro Logic as most stereo film tracks since '88 are. I am using a Pro Logic decoder to listen to the other 2 tracks mixed with the regular 2 channels. There is never 3 channels, always 4 with PL and up to 5.1 with PL II.

Dolby Digital and DTS are not at least 5.1 they are at least 1 channel (mono).

It is not "fake surround sound" they are just not discrete channels. In fact if you put in the audio CD for most movie soundtracks the matrixed channels are usually still there and you can get 4.0 from a CD.

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:44 pm
by 3DO Experience
I know no one cares but I got the ProLogic working right on the ones that were messing up. Not sure what I did but I was playing around with settings because when I unlocked my Panasonic DVD player the Dolby Digital wouldn't work on PAL discs. It all works fine now, and the upscaling wasn't the prob. :)

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:09 am
by mattyg
glad its sorted! 8)