Is the jaguar the most misunderstood console?

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Is the jaguar the most misunderstood console?

Post by 3DOKid » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:29 am

I frequent just one other forum aside from this one, and I'm often shocked and surprised about how much suppressed hate there is for the Jag.

"Most over hyped."
"Complete rubbish"
"Avoid"

now obviously much of this is Internet meme stuff. people, with no clue whatsoever, repeating 'facts' they heard on the Internet and repeating them in an attempt to appear a knowledgeable member of the pack. I attribute this to the 'over' love the DC receives and the 'over' hate the PS1 receives. It's like Internet gaming politics.

However, the bile pointed at the Jag is disturbing. Why do you think it is?

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Post by 3DO Experience » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:57 am

Too few games, not enough good ones. PS1 hate is just people trying to look cool by going against the norm. The "I'm not conformist" BS. I just kinda hate PS1,2&3... mostly because they have always been over hyped and it drives me crazy. As for the DC people see that is was a great system that has only been surpassed by the current generation of consoles. SEGA had just dug their own grave before they even released it.
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Post by NikeX » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:07 pm

I could hate PS1, but not WipEout = Ambivalence.
WipEout 1, WipEout 2097 / XL, Wip3out, WipEout 64.
But I hate WipEout Fusion, Pure, Pulse, HD, Fury, etc...
Therefore I hate PS2, PS3, PSP, NGP.
I like Iron Soldier. But I'm not in love with Jaguar.
I love DC, but I don't like the arcade games with a time limit,
like Crazy Taxi (freeride mode missed). I love DC because of it's
niches, it's experiments, it's exotic touch - it's the perfect
bridge from the late 90ies to the 2000s. Not the PS2.
WipEout over all.

Back to 3DOKid's question:
However, the bile pointed at the Jag is disturbing. Why do you think it is?
Jaguar brings down our "on tiptoe" behaviour. We were taken in by the 64Bit marketing. When disappointed by Jaguar, we were looking into a mirror. We couldn't bear that. That's why.

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Post by cybdmn » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:52 pm

The Jaguar was the last classic game console, mainly designed for classic arcade gameplay. This was inho one of the reasons, it failed. I came in a time, when the 3DO send the foreshadows of the new generations of game consoles, which evolved in SEGAs Saturn and SONYs Playstation.

None of all the hype acccusations applied really. The most overhyped console ever was, in my opinion, the Playstation. It took more than a year to bring out a game, which was more than a playable graphic demo on that thing.

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Post by Trev » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:58 pm

I think a lot of the venom thrown at the Jag, is really more directed at Atari itself. The system itself was fine, and it did have many good (if not great) games but the management behind it was ...

Like the Lynx, Atari had a cutting edge unit they didn't know what to do with (or refuesd to) I know I was bitter towards them ... I grew up with Atari, and to see the giant fall from grace over seemingly stupid errors in judgement was tough.
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Post by NikeX » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:43 pm

Jaguar would have been the best 16Bit Modul console. It should have come out earlier.

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Post by T2KFreeker » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:25 am

NikeX wrote:Jaguar would have been the best 16Bit Modul console. It should have come out earlier.
Here we go with this again. The Atari jaguar contains a programmable 64 bit Graphics Processor, making it a 64 bit system. It is NOT a 16 bit system. The only reason anyone even thinks that is because of magazines like Game Pro and EGM who took it upon themselves to slay anything that wasn't Nintendo or Sega at the time. Does the Jaguar have a 68000 chip in it? Yes. Was it used by other companies for graphics? Yes. Was that what Atari put it in there for? Nope. It was supposed to be used for communication between the blitter and the graphics processor. Just because some lazy programming groups decided to port over their Genesis stuff to the Jaguar and recolor it instead of actually using the Jaguar for what it was built for doesn't change what the system was. It was a 64 bit system. It could do things out of the box the SNES and Genesis could NEVER hope for. Before you bring up Starfox and Virtua Racing and their 3D polygons, remember, they had to have specialized chips built to do that. It was not native for the SNES or Genesis to do either of those games, so they don't count. The Super Nintendo or Genesis could NEVER hope to pull off Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, Missile Command 3D, Alien VS Predator, or BattleSPHERE. Check the specs of the Jaguar and then argue that it isn't a 64 bit system.

Processors

* "Tom" Chip, 26.59 MHz
o Graphics processing unit (GPU) – 32-bit RISC architecture, 4 KB internal cache, provides wide array of graphic effects
o Object Processor – 64-bit RISC architecture; programmable; can behave as a variety of graphic architectures
* Blitter – 64-bit RISC architecture; high speed logic operations, z-buffering and Gouraud shading, with 64-bit internal registers.
* DRAM controller, 8, 16, 32 and 64-bit memory management

# "Jerry" Chip, 26.59 MHz

* Digital Signal Processor – 32-bit RISC architecture, 8 KB internal cache
o Same RISC core as the GPU, but not limited to graphic production
* CD-quality sound (16-bit stereo)
o Number of sound channels limited by software
o Two DACs (stereo) convert digital data to analog sound signals
o Full stereo capabilities
* Wavetable synthesis, FM synthesis, FM Sample synthesis, and AM synthesis
* A clock control block, incorporating timers, and a UART
* Joystick control

# Motorola 68000 "used as a manager."[20]

* General purpose 16/32-bit control processor, 13.295 MHz
Other Jaguar features
* RAM: 2 MB on a 64-bit bus using 4 16-bit fast page mode DRAMs
* Storage: Cartridge – up to 6 MB
* Support for ComLynx I/O

After reading this, you can see that the Jaguar is a full boar 64 Bit system, it is not 16 bit. Also, before we get into the "Well, the Nintendo 64 looked so much better that the Jaguar, which proves my argument" thing. Well, there were how many years between Jaguar development and Nintendo 64 development?

Now that I have that out of the way :roll: . . .
Several things sadly lead to the Jaguar demise, and it all wasn't Atari, although they really did nothing to help it either. When the system launched, it didn't help that for the longest time there were only a handful of games available for it. You had an amazing version of Wolfenstein 3D, Evolution Dino Dudes, Cybermorph, Club Drive, and Trevor McFur. Yeah, and the only one that really dazzled the laymen gamer was Wolfenstein. In arguments about the whole Starfox VS Cybermorph, everyone always sited the fact that Starfox proved that the SNES could do everything the Jaguar could, and better. Still, nobody ever points out that the one, most amazing thing that Cybermorph does that Starfox doesn't is the fact that you are free roaming in Cybermorph. In Starfox, you are still on a "Track". You can only go so far left and right. With Cybermorph, you can go anywhere, which was very impressive at the time of it's release. Then you had the debacle from EGM that basically threw out the fact that the Jaguar was only a 16 bit system because it had a 68000 chip in it. Yeah, lets just ignore the 64 bit Programmable Risc Arcitecture. Yeah, that made sense. One of the last things I will never understand is the whole control pad thing. This, above all else irks me more than anything. You read all of these reviews about the horrible Jaguar controller and how big it is, but if you set it down next to a Playstation Dual Shock Controller or an XBOX Type S pad even, it's no bigger, just fuller because of the number pad. People bitch about "Paper Overlays". Yeah, that proves to me also that you haven't actually held a Jaguar pad or you are downloading the overlays and they aren't originals as they are generally a high quality Vinyl. Everyone always shows the controller from the top, but not the bottom. It has a nice ridge so that it fits your hands very comfortably. Still, people persist that the Jaguar has the worst controller ever. Then again, I guess these people have never played on an Intelivison, or a Coleco, or even an Atari 5200. Size? Biggest ever? Anyone seen an XBOX Duke Pad? :roll:

Kotaku can't even stay away from it anymore!
http://kotaku.com/#!5759566/this-is-pos ... -ever-made
Last edited by T2KFreeker on Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 3DOKid » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:54 am

Starfox is quite ugly compared to Cybermorph. I'm surprised anyone dared to compare the two. In fact I was quite disappointed with all the SuperFX chip games.

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Post by cybdmn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:35 am

Perfectly summed up, T2KFreeker. Many good points, which where common knowledge back then, but seems to be forgotten today.

Back then, mostly all magazines where pro-Nintendo. They dumped down all, which was NOT Nintendo. No matter, how bad this stuff was or how good the other stuff was. They dumped down the Genesis, the Jaguar, even the 3DO. Not to mention CD-i or Amiga CD32.

The first time, they stopped this shit was, when there was nothing new about Big N. The time, when the first Ultra 64 impressions grew old, and nothing new happens. This was the time, they needed to have other news.
This situation helped SEGA a little bit, and especially it helped SONY and their starting marketing for the Playstation.

After that, the magazines where all pro-SONY, and repeats all that shit, like dump down all, that was not SONY.

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Post by T2KFreeker » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:39 pm

3DOKid wrote:Starfox is quite ugly compared to Cybermorph. I'm surprised anyone dared to compare the two. In fact I was quite disappointed with all the SuperFX chip games.
I personally agree with you. I do like Starfox, but Cybermorph is a much more impressive game for me. Especially later in the game when all Hell breaks loose. The game is awesome. As far as Super FX Chip games go too, want to compare notes? Check out DOOM on the Jaguar and then play that damnable piece of trash on the SNES. Just pure all ugly and the controls suck to boot! Have to love the two frame animations for the enemies that never seem to stop moving either to the point of looking laughably ridiculous.
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Post by Anth » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:56 pm

I just wish all the hate was directed towards the 32X. To me, the 32X deserves any and all hate it gets, while the Jaguar and 3DO don't deserve very much hate at all.

In regards to the Jaguar specifically, I will say that it was one of the worst mainstream gaming systems ever released, but it still has some decent games that should be played and experienced. Now, you might be thinking... "wait a minute, you just called it one of the worst mainstream gaming systems ever released... how can you call it that?".

Well, yes, in regards to mainstream gaming systems, some of them are going to be failures, and some of them are going to suck. To me, the 32X, Jaguar and 3DO were all HUGE failures. The Sega CD was a pretty good failure as well. However, only one of those systems truly sucked. (the 32X). The others, while huge disappointments to the early adopters that jumped on their bandwagons, hoping that their "little engine that could" might end up being the No.1 console, still had some great games that deserve some recognition.


The Jaguar has at least 10 games that should be played, which is more than I can say for the 32X.

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Post by 3DOKid » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:50 pm

i like the 32x :cry:

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Post by T2KFreeker » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:30 pm

3DOKid wrote:i like the 32x :cry:
Yeah, me too. I loved that generation that consisted of the Sega CD/32-X, 3DO, and Jaguar. Was a very fun and creative time in gaming. Then came the Saturn which I adored, however, I was never really a Playstation fan. Don't even get me started on the Nintendo 64. :evil:
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Post by Austin » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:20 am

3DOKid wrote:i like the 32x :cry:
Likewise.

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Post by cybdmn » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:59 am

I like the 32X too. It's a pity, that the 32X standalone never made it to the shelves. :cry:

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Post by Austin » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:04 am

I wanted to light EGM on fire when they pulled that April Fools "joke" about Sega Neptune systems being discovered in a warehouse. That was beyond messed up.

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Post by T2KFreeker » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:18 am

Austin wrote:I wanted to light EGM on fire when they pulled that April Fools "joke" about Sega Neptune systems being discovered in a warehouse. That was beyond messed up.
Yeah, that was pretty good. I never had a big problem with that. My biggest complaint was the misinformation they spread. Stuff like the Jaguar. You should see their review of DOOM on the Jaguar. They rip it apart and talk so much crap about how horrible it was but then give the Super Nintendo version aces! I love where they talk about ho washed out the colors look and hos flat the characters are on the Jaguar version. That one review was enough to make me want to puke. The reviews they generally gave 3DO stuff was bullshit too. It always made me wonder if they actually played the damn games or if Sean Baby has been working there since the beginning but just as other staff writers. :roll:

Jaguar DOOM scores according to EGM: 6,7,7,7 Average:6.75
32-X DOOM scores according to EGM: 9,8,8,8,9 Average: 8.4

Yeah, who was smoking crack? Especially since the Jaguae version was first, has full screen graphics, and angles of the characters from other than the front. Oh, the 32-X version does have music though. :roll:
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Post by Austin » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:38 am

I didn't see many Jaguar reviews when I was young so I never saw the Jag DOOM review. I did see the 32X review in GamePro and recall them giving it 4.5s or 5s across the board (5 was the highest). Maybe Sega was paying off some of these editors..

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Post by 3DOKid » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:39 am

The 32x version was the Jag version, or based on the jag version right?

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Post by T2KFreeker » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am

3DOKid wrote:The 32x version was the Jag version, or based on the jag version right?
It was based off of the Jaguar version but scaled way down due to the limitations of the 32-X. It's not the worst version of DOOM I have ever played, but nowhere near the best and the Jaguar version blows it out of the water hands down.
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Post by Trev » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:45 pm

Is it fair though to compare Doom on the Jag to Doom on the SNES? Perhaps (and I'm not taking sides) more was expected from the Jag port since it was 64 bit hardware. I mean, who would have thought they could even get Doom running on the old SNES?
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Post by T2KFreeker » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:50 am

Trev wrote:Is it fair though to compare Doom on the Jag to Doom on the SNES? Perhaps (and I'm not taking sides) more was expected from the Jag port since it was 64 bit hardware. I mean, who would have thought they could even get Doom running on the old SNES?
Actually, many game magazines of the day gave the SNES release a higher score than the Jaguar version, yet again. And yes, it is fair to compare them as it's still DOOM. Remember that DOOM on the SNES is also a Super FX2 chip game, so it had added "Horsepower" to make it special as a stock SNES wouldn't have been able to dream of running DOOM, period.
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Post by Mobius » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:48 am

I think his point is that there were lower expectations for what Doom on the SNES could be, so a crappy port was still impressive by SNES standards. So a 9 for an SNES version just means it's about as good as possible for what the SNES can do.

In order to garner better review scores, the Jaguar version didn't just have to be better than the SNES version. It had to be better compared to its potential. The Jaguar was capable of a lot more than the SNES, so when the Jaguar Doom failed to push the limits of what people expected from the system, it was disappointing. So, even if it was objectively better than the SNES version, it was subjectively worse because it SHOULD have been much better.

Basically, just saying you can't compare scores across such different platforms because the expectations for each are so different.

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Post by Tatsumaru » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:14 pm

Alright, I readed the whole thread and I seriously don't get all that hate for the Playstation.
I mean, it was really a great console, and mostly of its fame was well deserved, it was really powerful for what it was worth, games like Final Fantasy VIII and Gran Turismo 2 are impressive even for today's standarts, so why so much hate towards it? =/

I think the biggest flaw of the Jag was the same thing that happened to the Dreamcast, trying to go "ahead of the competition", using some really expensive hardware, and still being lights year before the competition that decided to wait a little more to release powerful consoles for affordable prices.
Pretty much the same thing that happened to the 3DO, seriously, 700 bucks on 1994 was a total rip off.

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Post by NikeX » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:27 pm

T2K I really meant the Jaguar as an 16Bit console not because of the architecture, but rather as a console with the best 16Bit games, because of it's power. Combined with an earlier release.

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Post by T2KFreeker » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:40 pm

NikeX wrote:T2K I really meant the Jaguar as an 16Bit console not because of the architecture, but rather as a console with the best 16Bit games, because of it's power. Combined with an earlier release.
I see. Sorry about that, I am just tired of the whole argument about the Jaguar not being 64bit is all and that "Angry Video Game Nerd" who made his video recently didn't help either. Stating outright that the Jaguar Obviously isn't 64bit because the Nintendo 64 stomps it doesn't help things when it's obvious that the two were never competition. Plus the fact that the moron couldn't get a Jaguar CD system that worked and tried to fix it in the most ridiculous way is just more fuel to the fire. Perhaps if he had bought a brand new unit that still would have been cheaper than what he says he paid for it? :roll: It's all good anyway. People don't have to love the Jaguar. My biggest complaint are the morons that just spread the information that they "Heard" like they have had the system when they never once got their hands on it in the first place. Same can be said about morons that talk shit about the 3DO and have never touched one. Just stupid.

*On a side note. My hatred for the Playstation isn't squarely at the unti itself. Yes, it would have been amazing if the damn thing didn't burn out so quickly. I went through seven of those suckers! My hatred is aimed squarely at SONY itself because the customer support they provide is a joke. Remember, Hardware is absolute and if something happens to your console, it's your fault, ALWAYS! May not be that way now, but it was back then. Remember people having to turn their Playstations upside down to get them to work? Yeah, Sony claimed that people turned them upside down to look cool and that's what broke the systems in the first place. :? Really? So it's a trend all over the world for people to turn their consoles over so it looks cool? Whatever. :roll: And that's just one thing.
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Post by NikeX » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:29 pm

Nooo, it was my fault. My words were ambiguous. I've seen the AVGN video, the Attack of the Mutant Penguins part was done nicely. My first PlayStation created a spark in 1996. And before that it created unbelievable graphic glitchtes in Fade to Black (crazy colored walls) and WipEout (no track, only trees in the air) when not puting it sideways (because of the passive cooling system / heat bug). Iron Soldier is an remarkable game, like Starfighter for 3DO. Both share one important aspect: Freedom. Like Body Harvest for N64. The Jaguar is the most misunderstood console. Even by it's programmers and the Atari Corporation itself.

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Post by 3DO Experience » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:41 am

My most hated moment of all of Angry Video Game Nerd vids is when he talked about the Power Glove. My god, he actually thought that every game had code for it!!! There are like 5 basic codes and just because he doesn't know how to use it (because he doesn't have the manual) he thought it didn't work, except for one game that is. It works great! Especially for Punch Out!! I still have my first one complete in box, a Canadian one, a complete in box Japanese one and another I adapted for running on REND386. It F*ing works damn it!!!
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Post by Doskias » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:21 pm

Pardon my ignorance of computer hardware but how did they determine what 'bit' the systems were back then? Did it have to do with the bit-length of instructions the CPU could handle? And in systems that had multiple processing-units where each processor was a different 'bit' how would they determine what to label it in terms of 'bit' power? Long Live the Jaguar!

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Post by T2KFreeker » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:59 pm

Doskias wrote:Pardon my ignorance of computer hardware but how did they determine what 'bit' the systems were back then? Did it have to do with the bit-length of instructions the CPU could handle? And in systems that had multiple processing-units where each processor was a different 'bit' how would they determine what to label it in terms of 'bit' power? Long Live the Jaguar!
Not sure how they labeled other systems, but the Jaguar was labeled 64bit because all of the important parts of the system were 64bit. Well, that may be the wrong way to put this. The 68000 chip and the eight bit processor that the Jaguar had were intended to be used for Communication between other parts of the chipset in the Jaguar. They were not intended for any game function except that. People assumed that because there was a 68000 chip in the Jaguar, it obviously was a 16bit system. Then you have EGM that came up with that insane 16+16+16+16=16 not 64 argument which made no sense. It was a stupid argument because it makes no sense. If you look at the Jaguars specs, this does not add up. There are not four 16 bit chips in the machine either. It is what it is, I guess.
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